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15:28 < gmaxwell> Paper on asset-anonymous value-blind solvency proofs for exchanges at whatnot: https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1008.pdf
15:29 < gmaxwell> Somewhat analogous to the ring-ct stuff that Shen and Adam Back had written about in the past.
15:29 < gmaxwell> Scheme in the paper describes a pederson commitment + range proof which is about half as efficient as CT, but the replacement is a drop in.
15:30 < gmaxwell> One requirement is that the anonymity set for assets is limited to those txouts where the scrippubkey is known.
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15:31 < gmaxwell> Expecting exchanges to reuse addresses to accomplish this is bad mojo, plus expecting participants to trawl the whole 50+GB blockchain to extract all keys is sort of annoying;  I'd suggest instead someone just run a service where anyone can submit pubkeys to for inclusion in this.
15:32 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] You could encourage P2PK.
15:32 < maaku> tacotime: why? that has its own disadvantages
15:32 < gmaxwell> Makes me want to go write a two party ZK millionares problem (x<y test) implementation for pederson commitments so that people can use the assets proof from this find out who has more bitcoins without revealing which coins or how much. :P
15:33 < gmaxwell> maaku: read above.
15:33 < MRL-Relay> [shen] interesting
15:34 < maaku> gmaxwell: i know, but I mean solving one problem by introducing other problems isn't very satisfactory
15:34 < gmaxwell> belcher: this could be used to do "proof I have coins" without revealing which ones for JM, but I think it's too computationally expensive.
15:34 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] maaku: I don't know if they're catastrophic. 33 bytes versus 20. And you could use the public key outputs for ring signature systems that enable anonymous voting on threads/whatever based on the outputs you own on the blockchain.
15:34 < gmaxwell> maaku: P2PK doesn't really introduce any problems certantly not over and above reuse.
15:35 < maaku> tacotime: quantum hardness
15:35 < belcher> cc waxwing @ JM comment
15:35 < belcher> ty gmax
15:36 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] maaku: Monero hasn't had any issues yet. The pubkeys have to be published for the ring signatures.
15:36 < gmaxwell> tacotime: <blinks>
15:36 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Er... don't they? For outputs?
15:37 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] We don't P2PKH.
15:37 < maaku> tacotime: ... you don't see a quantum crypto break coming
15:37 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Well, not in the short term. But anything is possible.
15:37 < gmaxwell> tacotime: no, thats not my blinking reason.  Maaku is talking about weaknesses to future attacks which are presumed to not be in the wild (yet), ... absence of problems so far is seldom a good metric for security, in any case!
15:38 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Right.
15:39 < maaku> tacotime: to expand, in the event of a quantum computer large enough to break secp256k1, any revealed public key could be broken at leasure and then all coins stolen at once, en masse
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15:39 < sipa> TIL: on a quantum computer, hash collisions can be generated in n^(1/3) time
15:40 < maaku> whereas with P2PKH and no key reuse you only have a brief 10-minute window to break and RBF public keys in the mempool
15:40 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] maaku: Yes, certainly Monero would be a popular target in the even that Ed25519 was QC killed. And yeah, sipa, so the security of RIPEMD160 is down quite a bit.
15:40 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] 160-bit hashes may also fail to be secure.
15:41 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Though you can always OP_HASH256 instead... or add bigger hash functions.
15:42 < gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC DJB has a complaint about that number, owing to the fact that it disregards communication costs.
15:43 < gmaxwell> tacotime: for normal p2pkh collission security is not interesting.
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15:43 < gmaxwell> second preimage security is.
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15:48 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Yeah, I can't find much of anything on QC and second preimage resistance.
15:52 < gmaxwell> tacotime: its n^(1/2) via the grover algorithim, which is a proven tight bound, at least in the single target case.
15:53 < gmaxwell> (tight for generic functions of course, some specific hashfunction could be specially weak. :) )
15:53 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Oh, okay. So, I guess you just double the hash sizes for comparable security. Whereas the issue with the DLP and factoring is way more severe.
15:54 < gmaxwell> maybe. it's hard to say, a lot of costs end up ignored in these asymtopic analysis.
15:55 < zmanian> Joe Bonneau's Privacy Preserving Proof of solvency paper is online now. It does some interesting things building off inspiration from Confidential Transactions. https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/jbonneau/provisions-how-bitcoin-exchanges-can-prove-their-solvency/
15:56 < gmaxwell> zmanian: Thanks! (esp for the blog link, I haven't seen it yet)-- I linked the paper above at 15:28, and was just talking about it some.
16:07 < zmanian> I went to Joe's practice presentation of the paper at Stanford. Glad to have the paper to clarify some of things I understood only incompletely.  It is unfortunate that HSM hardware doesn't support generating the commitments to private keys needed for the second half of the proof.
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21:32 < gmaxwell> lesson to be learned about mistaking hyper-specific technical jargon for what you wanted to know.  The internet is full of people asking for algorithims for minimum set cover who keep getting told that they can't do better than the obvious greedy algorithim, some citing wikipedia or similar pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_cover_problem#Greedy_algorithm
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21:35 < gmaxwell> Wikpedia writes "Inapproximability results show that the greedy algorithm is essentially the best-possible polynomial time approximation algorithm for set cover"  ... reconizing the technical language, I know that this text is not actually telling me anything useful. But it seems most people seem to think this is telling them that "no fast algorithim is better than the greedy one", rather than th
21:35 < gmaxwell> e far less useful "there is no polynomial time algorithim that does better in the worst case than the greedy one", which would be a more accurate understanding of what it's talking about Inapproximability results.
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21:36 < gmaxwell> Case in point, building test vectors for libsecp256k1,  after initial reductions I end up with a problem on 50,000 (binary variables) (test cases to include), and 1000 constraints (branches/comparisons to cover)...
21:36 < gmaxwell> Greedy algorithim gives me a solution with 49 test vectors.
21:37 < gmaxwell> a linear progam solver that relaxes and then does branch and bound, gives me a 26 test vector solution in 12 seconds.
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21:39 < gmaxwell> god knows how much harm is done to the world here because someone too excited about the (honestly quite nifty) inapproximability result telling it to people that its completely irrelevant to (almost everyone) who mistake it for something that matters to them.
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21:41 < rusty> gmaxwell: just like coders saying "I can't prove my program terminates, duh, because halting problem".
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21:43 < gmaxwell> rusty: indeed!  (actually, bluematt did this the other day and I was wagging my finger at him from the audience! :) )
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22:09 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: huh?
22:10 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I thought you gave a "because halting problem" during devcore. :)
22:10 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: you mean when I was saying proving two functions identical is impossible universally because its actually the halting problem, but it is possible for some things?
22:10 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: ah ha! that was it.
22:10 < BlueMatt> huh? no, I kept saying it should be possible, but probably not on the crypto stuff
22:10 < BlueMatt> but is hard
22:11 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, I think it didn't come out completely clear that you were (correctly) limiting it to universality.
22:11 < BlueMatt> ahhh
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22:11 < BlueMatt> I think my main point was that if you dont pull out the crypto stuff you're gonna have a hard time (tm)
22:11 < BlueMatt> because your prover will probably get stuck there
22:12 < BlueMatt> but i could see how this didnt come across at all
22:13 < kanzure> nuiance olympics
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22:13 < gmaxwell> It might have, but at the time I didn't think it did. Usually better to avoid mentioning the halting problem result in any case.
22:13 < BlueMatt> yea, fair enough
22:15 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I'm glad you remember the context, because I didn't. :)
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