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07:06 < kanzure> "My main development project these days is Aboriginal Linux, which aims to replace cross compiling with native compiling under an emulator (qemu)." (rob landley stuff)
07:07 < kanzure> http://landley.net/aboriginal/
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09:36 < ggreer> what's the benefit of that?
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09:57 < maaku> and here I got excited that aboriginal linux might be some new translation or localization technology
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10:31 < fluffypony> maaku: likewise
10:32 < fluffypony> I thought it was the Australian version of Ubuntu
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12:17 < bliljerk101> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1233237.0 - just going to leave this here. would appreciate any responses on the forum. may not be around much today to respond over IRC
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12:19 < katu> bliljerk101: looks a lot like Torpath: the real life
12:21 < bliljerk101> katu is "Torpath: the real life" a technology? if so, can you link me to something (google posed no distinguishable results). if not, are you saying the smart contract chain looks like a torpath? because i thought so, too
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12:23 < katu> just look at the torpath paper. note that there are subtle differences.
12:23 < katu> for example, in torpath, the route is determined via NUMS, to avoid various framing attacks. not by the sender (ie your approach is similiar to that of tor).
12:24 < katu> you might want to consider NUMS, because the sender might be a plant in sting operation. paradoxically the privacy you provided between hops, it obscures sender.
12:25 < katu> protecting the FBI agent from being discovered as getting involved in willing entrapment
12:30 < bliljerk101> it shouldn't matter if the sender is under cover as he/she would not know the recipient's real destination. maybe i should clarify how to do this
12:30 < bliljerk101> i will read torpath paper. i don't think i'll be able to today
12:30 < katu> bliljerk101: the point of such a sting would be to bust selected relays.
12:32 < katu> your routiing solves problems regarding scamming, but introduces other vectors of attack with different incentives
12:32 < katu> generally in the "market competition" category, where the loss of bonds are treated as investment to destroy competition
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12:35 < katu> bliljerk101: btw, something closest to the system you devised already exists in the real life, even with bonds and all
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12:36 < katu> google up krebs ranting about money and reshipping mules for russian online fraud gangs :)
12:36 < bliljerk101> katu the recipient and sender could both create routes which would eliminate this i think.
12:37 < katu> bliljerk101: the select-a-route-and-bust-them? i'm skeptical. generally sender and recipient would be indeed same adversary.
12:38 < katu> bliljerk101: my reasoning is that, if I were LEA, and such network would present itself as an open mule market (where anyone can hire mules)
12:38 < katu> i'd aim to destroy that market first
12:40 < katu> they key difference is that feds can't do this with Tor, because of onion encryption. but you can't onion encrypt packages. you send it to someone, who is willing to reship it, and you bust em when they're about to do so.
12:41 < bliljerk101> i have to think about all of this at another time. i'm going to save your suggestions as well and review tomorrow or next day. i'm running out of time today, but your feedback is appreciated. if you have anything else to add, i'd appreciate if you could post on forum and i'll definitely respond.
12:42 < katu> bliljerk101: someone else will i'm sure :) generally i'd welcome if you'd elaborate on practical setup how this would be implemented
12:42 < katu> ie how such a mule market would operate in realistic terms
12:42 < katu> (until then, my remarks are largely speculative)
12:48 < gmaxwell> katu: it's usually preferable to use an attack model other than 'the feds',  for one, it's a needlessly weak attack model since they may need to appear to abide by the rule of law while a worst case attacker would not; it's also a needlessly politicized attack model, because many people believe the actions of law enforcement are often virtuious and that they do usually abide by the law. Alternati
12:48 < gmaxwell> vely, specifying a state attacker can also be needlessly over powered: if your goverment is the only party that can attack you, for many people thats good enough (and hard to stop, regardless).  I usually invoke hypothetical ninjas as the attacker, or otherwise, failing that a foreign state power.
12:48 < katu> gmaxwell: good point
12:49 < gmaxwell> Finally, for those who might read a conversaion and not really understand how hypothetical thinking works, it makes it sound like people here are scheming in varrious ways.. and thats not the case... can make some people uncomfortable.
12:49 < gmaxwell> :)
12:49 < katu> let's rephrase this in terms of market competition hiring ninjas to bust relays with valuable contraband :)
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12:51 < gmaxwell> yea in any case, the onion encryiton in tor protects the payload, not routing. and if the relays log, then they can break the security.
12:51 < katu> on that note, the network might also want to avoid to be implicitly connected with anything (realistically) questionable. for example relays would actually check the packages. in that case it would turn into sort of sneakernet, like grey markets in oppressive state regimes.
12:51 < gmaxwell> As far as disrupting this, all it takes is one idiot shipping something forbidden and it creates criminal charges against the participants; pretty vulnerable to byzantine attack.
12:51 < katu> where people sought to protect themselves from immoral state actors
12:52 < gmaxwell> the zero hop version if this is fine, but only works in a strong semi-honest enviroment.. e.g. you send someone the packing label, and they print it without storing it and never look at it.
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13:01 < waxwing> tamper resistant seals and a legitimate use for the network might be enough deniability for a node/peer?
13:03 < katu> waxwing: hmm, interesting. regular reshipping services indeed use similiar argument when abused for online fraud.
13:04 < katu> but it's telling most of them started requiring KYC forms after few incidents, so i presume this argument does not hold - they get slapped "if you claim you're legit, make sure your previous hop is accountable as well"
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13:06 < waxwing> yeah i can't see it. although it's a fun idea. i heard it discussed before as 'bitdrop'.
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