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06:28 < jtimon> andytoshi: I didn't noticed that you had a new version of the pos paper until just now when another freicoiner "asked me for the link" (ie proposed pos for freicoin), reading...
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06:30 < andytoshi> jtimon: oh :) it's a bit more readable than the old one, though unfortunately less fun i think
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06:52 < jtimon> andytoshi: love the last sentence: "We showed that by depending only on resources within the system, proof of stake cannot be used to form a distributed consensus, since it depends on the very history it is trying to form to enforce loss of value."
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09:40 < gmaxwell> So these mnemonic encodings for e.g. 32 bits into 3 words with a 1626 sized wordlist. For error protection, how about a base-1625 DAMM code?
09:48 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: we have an extra word as a checksum, not very imaginative but it saves fat fingers
09:50 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: having a checksum is obvious, but with a damm code you get guarentted detection of all single position subsutitious and all neighhboring position swaps.
09:50 < fluffypony> Interesting
09:51 < fluffypony> I'm reading up on it now
09:51 < fluffypony> Oh that's clever
09:54 < fluffypony> Thanks for the insight, gmaxwell, I'm going to play around with this a bit
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21:37 < bramc> I had what may be a very good idea
21:41 < gmaxwell> Kill him.
21:42 < gmaxwell> :P
21:42 <@gwillen> c.c
21:42 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gwillen] by gwillen
21:44 < bramc> Kill who?
21:44 < sipa> the idea
21:45 < bramc> My idea seems to fix the last lingering issue with proofs of space (other than the working things being convoluted and ridiculous)
21:46 < bramc> Er, well, reduce it anyway, I need to work through the details
21:48 < bramc> The idea is a tweak to the idea of making it so that the challenge at each generation is based not on the one immediately previous, but a ways back. This obviously gives more time for grinding, so I don't like the suggested number of 100, but just a few isn't a problem
21:51 < bramc> Anyway, that trick mitigates but doesn't fix the problem of withholding attacks, where someone can have a local best value but withhold it in favor of a local second best value because that one gives them a great value in the next generation. The attack doesn't work as well because your benefit isn't immediate and hence it's more likely to fall behind earlier, so it only works when you have a local near tie
21:53 < bramc> So my improvement on this is to note that the real issue here is that you can locally see what later challenges each of your local values will create in the future, which allows you to make judgements about whether to withhold immediately
21:55 < bramc> The fix for that is surprisingly simple (assuming that you're already using my proofs of time idea): You make it so that each block determines the challenge for, say, 20 blocks in the future, but to find out the challenge you need to do 4 average blocks worth of proof of time after it and it's the output of that which determines the challenge
21:56 < bramc> I believe this is a good idea, but I again apologize for the complexity, and it has another problem: If you have a just missed it result at time n but a good one at time n+1, you can make your just missed it result beat out the competition
21:58 < bramc> Which might put me back at square 1 because that attack is similar to the possible attacks when each challenge is based on the proof of time of the previous block
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22:01 < bramc> Here's an idea: Maybe the amount of time in the time challenge for each block is based on the quality of the previous block, not its own
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22:03 < bramc> Or maybe it's even based on the block which determined the challenge
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22:09 < bramc> hmm, doesn't work either, same problem applies just the order of good versus just missed is reversed
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--- Log closed Fri Nov 06 00:00:17 2015