--- Log opened Fri Nov 06 00:00:17 2015
00:02 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:06 -!- dave4925 [dave4925@unaffiliated/dave4925] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
00:07 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
00:18 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:22 -!- TBI__ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
00:26 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:30 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:33 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
00:42 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:47 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:53 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:54 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:00 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
01:01 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
01:02 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:04 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:06 -!- seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:08 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
01:14 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:20 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:25 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
01:27 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
01:32 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit []
01:40 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:40 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:45 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:48 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:55 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:56 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:59 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:59 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has quit [Excess Flood]
02:01 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:04 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:05 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:10 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
02:10 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
02:16 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:16 -!- nodee3333 [uid123669@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rahwxemokjmwsyhm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:16 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:21 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:26 -!- CodeShark_ [~CodeShark@2600:380:4b43:bae5:fd25:a062:1823:9dda] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:28 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
02:28 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:29 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:30 -!- Pasha [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:30 -!- OneFixt [~OneFixt@unaffiliated/onefixt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:31 -!- stonecoldpat [~a9380004@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:37 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:37 -!- Pasha is now known as Cory
02:37 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has quit [Excess Flood]
02:39 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@104.238.169.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:41 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:53 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:55 -!- pozitron [~nu@89.248.171.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
02:57 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@c89225.upc-c.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:59 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:03 -!- zmachine [~zmachine@pool-74-100-90-30.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:05 -!- zmachine [~zmachine@pool-74-100-90-30.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:06 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:11 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:19 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-3.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:35 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@141.8.72.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:47 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
03:49 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:08 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:13 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
04:13 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:14 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:15 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:28 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:29 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:30 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:31 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
04:35 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:39 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
04:41 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:42 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:45 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:52 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@mail.gorilla-computing.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:52 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@mail.gorilla-computing.de] has quit [Changing host]
04:52 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:57 -!- nodee3333 [uid123669@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rahwxemokjmwsyhm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
04:58 -!- aburan28 [~xypher@static-108-45-93-78.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:07 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
05:11 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:17 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@31.154.91.53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:30 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
05:31 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-44-48.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:34 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:44 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
05:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-44-48.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:50 < Taek> https://thewinnower.com/
05:51 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
05:51 < Taek> ^ A publication journal/website that focuses on accepting all content, including things like reddit AMAs - as long as it's high-signal
05:52 < Taek> They already have an [empty] section for CryptoCurrency
05:52 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
05:52 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:53 < Taek> I think my biggest criticism would be that there doesn't seem to be a great way to navigate between ideas that may be related
05:57 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:03 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:08 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:10 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:13 < nsh> if only there were some kinda.... better text, like, a hypertext or something, to facilitate that sort of thing
06:14 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:28 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Quit: Over and Out]
06:28 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:35 -!- c0rw|zZz [~c0rw1n@108.193-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:43 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
06:46 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:47 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:54 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
06:56 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:09 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:09 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:12 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:15 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:16 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:16 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
07:21 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
07:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:27 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:27 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:27 < AdrianG> is anyone working on ddos attack mitigation, like the recent dust attack?
07:28 < bsm1175321> I have some ideas, I wouldn't say I'm *working* on it though.
07:28 < AdrianG> ddos are way cheaper than 51%, and are effective to some extent.
07:29 < bsm1175321> I think we should stop p2p relaying transactions for free.  Every transaction should be PoW mined a little bit to be relayed.
07:29 < bsm1175321> e.g. use hashcash as it was originally envisioned.
07:30 < AdrianG> ie pay before it gets propagated?
07:30 < bsm1175321> Not pay, but includea PoW header demonstrating that the submitter spent resources to create the tx.  Then the p2p layer can lower/raise the threshold on this PoW hash.
07:31 < bsm1175321> (Incorporating this somehow with the primary mining via e.g. merged mining is an interesting and difficult discussion)
07:31 < AdrianG> bsm1175321: thats equivalent to paying
07:32 < bsm1175321> It *can be*.
07:32 < AdrianG> reusable proof of work.
07:32 < AdrianG> why is it a difficult discussion?
07:33 < bsm1175321> It requires pretty deep structural changes to bitcoin.
07:33 < bsm1175321> Concrete proposals/implementation/tests are needed.
07:33 < bsm1175321> But I think the idea itself has a lot of merit.
07:33 < AdrianG> changes could be made backwards compatible.
07:34 < AdrianG> it could be triggered only when mempool grows beyond a certain limit.
07:34 < AdrianG> this could also be used as an incentive for full nodes, if they get paid to propagate txs.
07:35 < AdrianG> even if its tiny amounts.
07:35 < bsm1175321> Basically, bitcoin itself should be merge mined.  If you try to merge-mine individual transactions with the primary chain, you end up including a lot of extra data with each transaction.  It's way more efficient to merge-mine in both directions, which means bitcoin accepting an alternate definition of PoW.
07:35 < bsm1175321> And that's a hard fork.
07:38 < AdrianG> what is a lot of extra data?
07:39 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit []
07:40 < bsm1175321> Merge mining, as it's done currently, requires a merkle branch to be from the "primary" to be embedded in the "secondary" (because the PoW hash is embedded in the Merkle tree)
07:41 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:41 < bsm1175321> If "primary" is a bitcoin block, then O(10) extra hashes of a Merkle branch have to be embedded in every relayed transaction, which is ~300-500 bytes added to every transaction.
07:42 < bsm1175321> It's way more efficient to do it the other way.
07:43 < bsm1175321> Embed something from the "small" mined objects into the "large" mined object.
07:48 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:48 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:48 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:48 -!- matsjj__ [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:48 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@31.154.91.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
07:49 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:50 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@104.238.169.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
07:52 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:55 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
08:00 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:02 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@31.154.92.75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:04 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:05 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has quit [Excess Flood]
08:06 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:07 < amiller_> bsm117532, i like that idea tbh
08:07 < amiller_> bsm117532, maybe you could also do it with micropayment channels
08:07 < amiller_> but if you're going to be consuming service from a node, such as using up one of its slots, or trying to get a tx relayed, it makes sense to compensate them or at least put up collateral they can take
08:08 -!- matsjj__ [~matsjj@79.173.166.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
08:08 < bsm1175321> I agree.  If we're going to mine, let's merge mine and make merge mining more systematic and compensated.
08:09 < bsm1175321> I want to combine it with the idea of turning the block chain into a DAG.  e.g. replace the p2p layer with another mined set of blocks, organized into a DAG, merge-mined with the primary bitcoin blocks.
08:09 -!- heehaw [75f69056@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.246.144.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:09 < bsm1175321> Either way it helps move mining to the edges of the network.  All nodes would be incentivized to add hashing power to avoid DDoS.
08:11 < heehaw> Hi... guys... I was thinking abt a decentralized bitcoin network .. independent of TCP/IP...
08:12 < heehaw> Some kind of ad hoc network based on drones probably...
08:12 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:12 < kanzure> bitcoin is not a transport protocol
08:13 < heehaw> Okay... I should have phrased it better....
08:13 < heehaw> A network tailor made for bitcoin...
08:14 < heehaw> Lets face it... you heard what Jamie Dimon had to say abt bitcoin ysday....
08:14 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:14 < heehaw> I think at some point governments will go after bitcoin using their control over the internet...
08:15 < nsh> (this is probably more of a #bitcoin idea than for here; unless you're going to attempt networking with blockchains or something, in which case i advise a career change :)
08:15 < bsm1175321> heehaw: you can relay bitcoin transactions over any medium.  Bitcoin currently runs over ipv4, ipv6, and tor.
08:15 < nsh> i'm not sure if there is anywhere explicated the network-level assurances that make the bitcoin network work as expected
08:16 < nsh> but i suppose something that looks roughly like tcp would be fine
08:17 < heehaw> But arent you guys concerned that the internet is still something over which the government has a kill switch...
08:17 < nsh> the conceptual problem with your idea is that a dedicated ad-hoc network just for financial or distributed-ledger transactions might attract, and be susceptible to - far more attacks than tcp/ip, which is relatively mature and underpins many more systems
08:18 < heehaw> My problem is not really.. TCP .... But it is the IP....
08:18 < nsh> if the internet is turned off, bitcoin will pretty low on the list of pressing problems
08:19 < heehaw> @nsh I would suspect that a limited provably secure network is possible.. since the scope of the network can afford to be very limited..
08:22 < heehaw> @nsh But say such a network is possible and available.... Would it be a good idea???
08:24 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@89.197.31.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:24 < nsh> sure, more resilient network transport alternatives and complementary systems are generally beneficial
08:24 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
08:26 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:26 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:2108:c69:413e:8d37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:27 < heehaw> @nsh..  <extreme bias> My biggest fear in case of an internet shutdown would be bitcoin....
08:28 < nsh> you should be reading about network design engineering principles, not quoting idiots to me :)
08:28 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:46 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:49 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:52 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:54 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:55 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:55 -!- maaku is now known as Guest9991
08:56 -!- Guest9991 is now known as maaku
08:56 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:8d3a:3b84:5ef9:d8fd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:03 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@c89225.upc-c.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:05 -!- pozitrono [~nu@sa0111.azar-a.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:09 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:10 < AdrianG> the internet cannot be shutdown at this point.
09:10 < AdrianG> only selective filtering is feasible.
09:11 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@50.242.80.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:13 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:17 < waxwing> RFC1149 is my fallback of choice personally
09:18 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:23 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
09:28 -!- c0rw|zZz [~c0rw1n@108.193-241-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:36 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:42 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@50.242.80.35] has quit [Quit: bendavenport]
09:45 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:47 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-etquhaflyhyuyfgu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
09:49 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:49 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:52 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:59 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c303:6cd0:3c26:6e47:4dd1:cd23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:00 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@c-71-60-0-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:01 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:01 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ghdxmcfiadssqrnd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:01 -!- dasource [uid48409@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wkpsdvjorhadvhwn] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
10:03 -!- CodeShark [~androirc@40.135.239.174] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:05 -!- Guest57961 [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
10:06 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .]
10:07 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
10:08 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:12 -!- pigeons [~pigeons@94.242.209.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:12 -!- pigeons is now known as Guest91590
10:18 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:48 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:50 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:51 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:52 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-3.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:53 < AdrianG> bsm1175321: how would you guesstimate the amount of hashing needed in your scheme to avoid dust attacks
10:55 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:56 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@81.128.173.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:56 < gmaxwell> bsm1175321: I think you're chasing a non-issue.
10:56 < gmaxwell> We have an integrated mechenism to prevent flooding-- transaction fees.
10:57 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@81.128.173.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:57 < AdrianG> gmaxwell: you could pay nodes to relay txns
10:57 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@81.128.173.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:58 < gmaxwell> generally hashcash solutions as you suggest have problems setting parameters which are strong enough to stop a desktop (or god forbid, a gpu or asic), while still allowing a mobile device to participate at all.
10:58 < gmaxwell> AdrianG: no one gives a hoot about that.
10:59 < AdrianG> gmaxwell: nobody cares about number of nodes dropping lower and lower?
10:59 -!- the`doctor [~matt@162.211.151.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:59 < amiller_> gmaxwell, maybe not now, but the landscape of these things will change if the network changes
10:59 < gmaxwell> AdrianG: "relaying transactions" isn't a service that needs to be provided, in that sense.
10:59 < gmaxwell> AdrianG: there is no efficient mechenism to pay nodes to relay txn, and if anyone tried doing that miners would just advertise nodes that get txn to them for free and people would relay directly to those.
11:00 < amiller_> what i mean is, if someone makes a totally new p2p network design that solves some of the problems people care about now, it will introduce some other problems, including potentially making relaying transactions for free less common, in which case these solutions might be good
11:01 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:2108:c69:413e:8d37] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:02 -!- heehaw [75f69056@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.246.144.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:04 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:08 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:08 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: transactions submitted from low power devices would need to be aggregated into a mini-block with higher difficulty.  Some nodes could intentionally provide this aggregation service (perhaps wallet providers or phone companies -- where they've identified a customer-generated transaction), while others could increase their relay difficulty target to avoid spam from the general internet.
11:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-44-48.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:10 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-44-48.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:10 < bsm1175321> AdrianG: I have no idea how much would avoid dust attacks -- but it doesn't matter.  The p2p relay layer is not consensus critical so individual nodes can choose different input difficulty targets (and just raise it until the dust goes away).
11:12 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.118.162] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:15 -!- zooko` [~user@c-73-217-16-2.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:16 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:17 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
11:18 < nsh> there is no consensus without a roughly distributedly-consistent set of cryptographically-verified signed transaction objects to confirm block validity
11:18 < nsh> not sure how useful it is to consider the relay layer noncritical
11:18 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: If nodes choose to have zero input difficulty, and their nodes and the network in general can handle it, then "dust attacks" aren't actually a problem at all.  Apparently someone thinks it is a problem.  My *actual* goal is to try to get all nodes to mine to decrease miner centralization, and use a DAG instead of a chain to get rid of orphans and increase the transaction rate.
11:18 -!- matsjj_ [~matsjj@81.128.173.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:18 < nsh> (more constructive to think about in terms of latency and connectivity tolerances maybe)
11:20 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:23 < amiller_> bsm117532, it's silly to do with mining what you can just do with payments directly
11:23 -!- the`doctor [~matt@static-108-47-15-123.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:27 < bsm1175321> amiller_: If spam attacks, malleability, dust, etc, don't ever get confirmed, no one gets paid.
11:28 < bsm1175321> Again my actual goal is to get more people to (merge) mine.  I happen to think it can help prevent spam too.
11:29 < amiller_> im skeptical of trying to combine the approaches to two separate problems unless that's really the best way
11:29 < amiller_> it's neat that if payments are too small and you don't have time/resource to bootstrap a micropayment channel, mining directly can be an alternative
11:31 < bsm1175321> I'm a fan of killing two birds with one stone.  ;-)
11:31 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@31.154.92.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:32 < bsm1175321> I'm negotiating with my CEO, but it's very likely I'll present these ideas with more analysis at Scaling Bitcoin in HK.
11:39 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:41 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:43 < nsh> (for anyone who didn't see it: https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2015/11/04/a-big-result-on-graph-isomorphism/ # graph isomorphism [potentially constructively, by canonicalization] to be demonstrated in quasipolytime)
11:44 -!- MagikSquirrel [~MagikSqui@unaffiliated/magiksquirrel] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
11:45 -!- MagikSquirrel [~MagikSqui@unaffiliated/magiksquirrel] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:50 -!- MnemoniX [~cyberjedi@unaffiliated/mnemonix] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:50 < MnemoniX> any 1 home
11:51 -!- MnemoniX [~cyberjedi@unaffiliated/mnemonix] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
11:54 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:55 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:56 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.118.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:59 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:02 -!- Londe2 [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:05 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:06 -!- Londe [~Londe@cpe-104-32-148-17.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
12:07 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
12:09 < MRL-Relay> [shen] re the graph isomorphism blog post: "Raising questions about other problems. This a surprising result. Is a similar result for factoring around the corner? ...."
12:09 < MRL-Relay> [shen] hopefully not
12:11 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:11 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Client Quit]
12:15 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:21 < bramc> Dust attacks are straightforward to stop: You have a policy of only relaying payments which will go into the next few blocks assuming highest fees come first and no new transactions
12:22 < bramc> Also only allow one replacement of a transaction per block
12:22 < kanzure> bramc: did you email your fee estimation article to bitcoin-dev mailing list?
12:22 < bramc> kanzure, No I did not
12:23 < bramc> I'm not on any mailing lists, as a personal productivity measure
12:23 < kanzure> i don't believe you need to subscribe
12:23 < kanzure> could you email the text and link to bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org ? i am moderator and i think i can let it through without subscribing you.
12:23 < kanzure> although, this might signal to others that you are reading, so you might want to add a note that you're not.
12:24 < kanzure> in particular this stuff (or anything that usurps it) https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb
12:25 < bramc> Okay I'll do that later today
12:25 < kanzure> cool thank you
12:25 < bsm1175321> bramc: I prefer a PoW/hashcash solution over heuristics.  One person's spam is another person's business model.  As long as they pay for it with fees or hashing, I see no reason not to let things through.
12:26 < bramc> If only we had a system which took hash based proofs of work and assigned them a floating monetary value based on current hash power
12:26 < bsm1175321> ;-)
12:27 < bramc> I'm assuming routing priority is given to transactions with higher fees
12:27 < bsm1175321> Again, I'm actually trying to get all nodes to mine, to decrease mining centralization.  The spam/dust at the p2p layer may or may not be useful, but it opens the possibility.
12:27 < kanzure> i believe the typical assumption floating around here is that there is high chance that most transactions will eventually be submitted directly to miners
12:28 < kanzure> actually now i don't know what "most" really means here
12:28 < kanzure> "most" is too strong of a statement for that
12:29 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@40.135.239.174] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:29 -!- CodeShark [~androirc@40.135.239.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:29 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:2108:c69:413e:8d37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:33 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:34 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
12:34 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:35 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:35 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@40.135.239.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:38 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:39 < nsh> MRL-Relay / shen: 'Quasipolynomial-Time Canonical Form for Steiner Designs' -- http://people.cs.uchicago.edu/~laci/papers/13stoc-steiner-iso.pdf
12:41 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:42 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:43 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@173.239.75.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:46 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@173.239.75.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:50 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:52 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:00 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:01 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:03 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:09 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@38.104.224.174] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:14  * Taek realizes that the clock rate and core count on his phone is higher than the clock rate and core count on his work laptop
13:15 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@38.104.224.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:20 < sipa> my phone has a higher resolution screen than my laptop :)
13:22 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@71-6-103-72.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:23 < nsh> Taek, those cores run at lower voltages with lower heat loss tolerance and a simpler architecture and so the computation power per clock-rate is not commensurate with PCs
13:24 < Taek> nsh: I never said that the processing power was comparible
13:25  * nsh nods
13:27 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:30 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:33 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:35 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:59 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:00 -!- nessence [~alexl@109.174.174.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:05 -!- keus [~jussi@dsl-espbrasgw1-54fa72-176.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:07 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@206.110.20.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
14:07 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:08 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Client Quit]
14:08 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:19 -!- atgreen [~green@38.104.156.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
14:21 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@71-6-103-72.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
14:23 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:29 < gmaxwell> nsh: it's pretty remarkable how big the gap is, in fact.
14:32 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@184-23-239-227.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:33 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
14:35 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:36 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Client Quit]
14:38 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:2108:c69:413e:8d37] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:46  * nsh nods
14:47 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:48 -!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:02 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:16 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:20 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA16446AA1312B8029AEC3D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:20 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p20030089EA16446AA1312B8029AEC3D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:28 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:39 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:40 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:48 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:52 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:57 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:59 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:01 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:02 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
16:04 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:09 -!- hsmiths [uid95325@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gerqjbwsandvutjx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:15 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:15 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:19 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has quit [Excess Flood]
16:20 -!- TBI [~TBI@20.84-48-195.nextgentel.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:23 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.46.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:48 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:48 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
16:49 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:05 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:10 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:14 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:16 -!- hashtag [cjmedia@cpe-98-157-223-81.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:16 -!- hashtag [cjmedia@cpe-98-157-223-81.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:24 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dipefamoeiqhqgcr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
17:26 < bramc> kanzure, I subscribed with delivery turned off so I can post
17:26 < bramc> kanzure, Now awaiting moderator approval
17:31 -!- Kireji [~nospam@unaffiliated/kireji] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:32 < bramc> A few thoughts from the last day: After thinking about the new approach to challenges in proofs of space I proposed yesterday, I think it's apples to apples an improvement over just using the previous PoT to generate a challenge. In both cases a kingmaker attack where someone with an exceptional challenge response can make their own thing win, but (a) That's the only attack in the new system rather than withholding also having some possible advantages
17:32 < bramc> (b) In the new system an attacker will know they have a good response in advance, but that's immaterial (c) In the new system an attacker doesn't have any grinding options, because they have the same challenge response regardless of which previous generation value they pick (this is probably why others have proposed the simpler version without PoT) and (d) in the new system when somebody is playing kingmaker it's with something they're going to win any
17:32 < bramc> way, rather than them getting bonused both the block they ground with and ground to.
17:35 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:37 < kanzure> bramc: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011685.html
17:37 < bramc> Also (e) it's a lot simpler to mathematically characterize the attacks on the new approach and (f) the remaining attack seems to be very deep so it's just being showcased properly
17:39 < bramc> Overall I rather like the new approach, the downsides are (a) Timestamping. So much timestamping. and (b) It allows for more grinding attacks where space is rewritten to be re-mined again, as opposed to using just the last PoT for challenges which gives no time for that at all. Probably not much of a problem in practice though.
17:40 < bramc> kanzure, Thanks, I'll check the archives for new posts, and sorry about the funny line breaks.
17:40 < kanzure> nah link was just indicator that i was able to approve it and there you go. that's all.
17:45 < bramc> The other new thought for today is that the patricia tree format I suggested was just a little too simplistic, because there are some collisions due to single items having their hashes included verbatim, because it doesn't differentiate between a parent node which is the hash of the children and a terminal node which is a hash of the exact same thing. The solution is to simply put all the terminals through any old transformation. Flipping all their bit
17:45 < bramc> s will work nicely. So will flipping just the last bit.
17:56 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
17:58 -!- danielsocials [~quassel@45.32.248.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:00 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
18:00 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@71-222-57-192.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:00 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:15 -!- the`doctor [~matt@static-108-47-15-123.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
18:26 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:34 -!- Starduster [~sd@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:34 -!- Yoghur114 [~jorn@g227014.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:38 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
19:02 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:07 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
19:23 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:23 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:03 -!- bramc [~bram@38.99.42.130] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:12 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.179.255] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:17 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:22 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.179.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:25 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.200] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:26 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20:27 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:31 -!- jtimon [~quassel@74.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:33 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:36 -!- grubles [~freebsd@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
20:44 -!- Drykon [~Drykon@c-98-251-23-203.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:47 -!- CodeShark_ [~androirc@184-23-239-227.dedicated.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:48 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam]
20:55 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
21:00 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:12 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:39 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:45 -!- Jeremy_Rand_ is now known as Jeremy_Rand
21:45 -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@ip68-97-34-37.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
21:45 -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@ip68-97-34-37.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:49 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:59 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
23:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:13 -!- kgk [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
23:22 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@71-222-57-192.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:41 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .]
23:49 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wdyhlvsnieowecnh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Sat Nov 07 00:00:18 2015