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#bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:55 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:01 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- jgarzik__ [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:02 < bramc> Is bitcoin-ng specifically meant to solve all this miner conspiracy forkage stuff? 01:07 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:09 < gmaxwell> no, though it decouples size related propagation latency from the mastership race. 01:15 -!- Myagui [~Myagui@209.141.38.240] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:15 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:16 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-142-236.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- phantomcircuit_ is now known as phantomcircuit 01:28 -!- Jaamg 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seconds] 01:33 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:34 -!- publius1788 [~publius17@104.200.154.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- kinlo [peter@unaffiliated/kinlo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- heath [~heath@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:38 -!- simba [~simba@dhcp-18-111-93-77.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:40 -!- SwedFTP [~SwedFTP@unaffiliated/swedftp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- zmachine [~zmachine@pool-74-100-90-30.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:41 -!- sipa_ is now known as sipa 01:41 -!- morcos [~morcos@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:42 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:42 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:42 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43 < gmaxwell> What you can do is multiply once, then double many times (cheper than an add when j-invariant=0), then do a batch modular inversion. Then use the efficient endomorphism to get thre point from every point for the cost of just a FE multiply. 01:43 < gmaxwell> The result is something on the order of 15 million per second. 01:43 -!- nanotube [~nanotube@unaffiliated/nanotube] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:43 < gmaxwell> aj_: which is why I was able to get ones with 4-5 bytes of fixed space. 01:43 < aj_> gmaxwell: so 15 zero bytes means 4 zero bytes in s using g/2; which means 4GH when signing normally, which means it doesn't work well with CPUs? 01:44 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.200.154.31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:45 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-142-236.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:45 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46 < sipa> gmaxwell: i considered restricting the size of the signature, but dismissed it as too slow to be usable 01:46 < aj_> gmaxwell: i was thinking even 3 zero bytes in s, at 16MH was a bit worrying if you want to do this with a client running on a phone or similar... 01:46 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:46 < gmaxwell> aj_: well, I was assuming around 2^30 work-- the time is all the hash the field operations are free by comparison. It can be fundged a bit. 01:47 < gmaxwell> aj_: in theory it works without any S restriction, but I wasn't happy with the security parameter due to splitting the cost between R and S being possible.. 01:47 < aj_> gmaxwell: though i guess since you're revealing P anyway, you could just outsource the whole problem anyway 01:48 < gmaxwell> sipa: in particular the fact that we know the discrete log of a point that as 11 bytes of zeros is actually useful for something! 01:48 -!- aj_ is now known as aj 01:48 < sipa> gmaxwell: very true... 01:48 < sipa> i hadn't considered using that point 01:49 < gmaxwell> aj_: if you assume an equal split (perhaps not rational because of the computational cost) then you get half the bits of security, so my figures give about 60 bit security. 01:52 -!- stevenroose [stevenroos@bnc1.sollidi.us] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 < gmaxwell> aj: actually I think the R grinding is cheaper than the S grinding. group_double_var: 0.199us + 3* fe_mul 0.0310us = 3 points. or .0766/point.. about 8x faster than sha256^2 for my laptop. 01:53 < sipa> gmaxwell: security against what? 01:54 < gmaxwell> sipa: the attack is that someone who doesn't want to reveal grids a lot of R values to find an unusually small one, then takes the best and grinds S values (by changing the transaction and hashing) 01:55 < gmaxwell> E.g. if we only required it to be the smallest you get from R, the attacker can actually grind that: 90 bits smaller is hard, but 2x 40 bits much better. 01:55 < sipa> i'm missing something 01:55 < sipa> we don't want people to not reveal 01:55 -!- c-cex-finch [uid120855@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzzagvjkjoyehlsu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:56 < gmaxwell> sipa: my forced reveal scriptpubkey is OP_SIZE 57 OP_LESSTHENOREQAL OP_VERIFY

OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY. To get that size you'd use the special R and do 2^30 hashing work to get S small enough. 01:57 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-179-104.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:57 < sipa> ah, you mean that someone is able to satisfy the signature without it being revealing 01:57 < gmaxwell> If instead I required <=61 instead, which is the size you get from the special R and a random S then an attacker can do 2^40 work to get a small but not heroically small R; then 2^40 work to get a small S. 01:57 < gmaxwell> right. 01:57 < sipa> i assumed the size was chosen small enough to make that impossible 01:57 < aj> gmaxwell: 2**32 hashing work no? you still have to have 4*8=32 zero bits to drop 8 bytes, then another zero bit to not add a zero byte back to avoid it being a negative number? 01:58 < sipa> gmaxwell: 60-bit of antisecurity :) 01:59 < gmaxwell> aj: freeking der encoding. :P well you save one bit of hashing work becaues of the low-s flip. 01:59 < gmaxwell> (if your result is in the upper half you flip and it's still a valid signature.) 02:00 < gmaxwell> aj: you and andytoshi should writeup your solution to; which you both independantly came up with. (I gave up on that approach too early when sighash flags frustrated me) 02:01 < sipa> so size 57... that means 50 bytes of actual r+s data 02:02 < sipa> or 199 bits in r and s on average 02:04 < sipa> gmaxwell: you can require two different small signatures, for a public key and a related one 02:05 < sipa> oh, that just doubles the amount of s work 02:06 < gmaxwell> oh thats interesting actually I think there might be something to combining the two approaches. 02:07 < gmaxwell> oh darn nah, bitcoin screws us. 02:08 < gmaxwell> well I guess but it's more gross. 02:08 < sipa> i was thinking along the line of requiring two identical signatires, one for the real public key and one for a public key you choose to reveal 02:08 < gmaxwell> You compute P's reveal signature for a message of 1. And give me the hash of it. 02:08 < sipa> but that's something someone without the private key can do too 02:09 < aj> gmaxwell: https://gist.github.com/ajtowns/3fd596af4f81042ef6ac updated with hopefully better numbers, and andytoshi/my approach 02:09 < gmaxwell> sipa: identical signature constraints is what aj and andytoshi came up with. 02:09 < gmaxwell> there is a non-smallness related solution via that but it gets ugly to handle due to sighash flags. 02:10 < aj> gmaxwell, sipa: i think if you require 5 small signatures, you get forced to do a squared amount of work, no matter how clever you are with different sighash options 02:10 < sipa> what is sqrt(G).x ? 02:10 -!- kang_ [67efe9a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.239.233.169] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:10 < sipa> or (G/2).x ? 02:11 < sipa> (specifically: is its high bit set?) 02:13 -!- Yoghur114 [~Yoghurt11@131.224.198.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:15 < gmaxwell> 00000000000000000000003b78ce563f89a0ed9414f5aa28ad0d96d6795f9c63 02:15 < gmaxwell> so 3. 02:16 < gmaxwell> "no" so you get the padding. 02:19 < sipa> so: 7 bytes overhead, 21 bytes r, leaves 29 bytes for s 02:19 < sipa> which is 2^24 work 02:19 < sipa> (2^25, but you get one bit from flipping) 02:19 < gmaxwell> yea, I'd missed the padding and intended to be more work than that. 02:20 < gmaxwell> but as I said; sercurity level here is a bit squishy. 02:20 < sipa> less, i hope? 02:21 < sipa> 2^24 work to produce a signature seems painful 02:21 < gmaxwell> it's like 11 seconds. 02:21 < sipa> on a desktop 02:22 < gmaxwell> on a single core, in fact. Yes, on mobile that would be obnoxious, though it could be delegated. 02:22 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:22 < gmaxwell> longer term we'll of course get substr back, and have this sanely. (or via a xG test) 02:23 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 < gmaxwell> You see the other solution? 02:24 < sipa> gmaxwell: r does not need padding 02:24 < sipa> gmaxwell: just started reading 02:25 < gmaxwell> oh because it doesn't start with a zero _byte_, sorry, 3am. 02:28 < sipa> eh 02:28 < sipa> no 02:28 < sipa> because it does start with a zero bit 02:31 < gmaxwell> 3am 02:31 < gmaxwell> I am sticking to this story. 02:31 < gmaxwell> It is aided by the fact that I am saying it's 3am, while it's actually only 2:31. 02:33 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:35 < sipa> i'm sute it's past 3am in some timezones 02:35 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-140-220.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 02:35 < sipa> mine, specificallt, where it's already past 11am! 02:40 -!- flipswitchbitch [~ielo@88-106-251-79.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- 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ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 11:06 -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] 11:06 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 11:06 [@ChanServ ] [ c-cex-yuriy ] [ Giszmo ] [ jonasschnelli ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ smk ] 11:06 [ [7] ] [ catcow ] [ gmaxwell ] [ jouke ] [ Myagui ] [ smooth_ ] 11:06 [ [ace] ] [ catlasshrugged ] [ gnusha ] [ jrayhawk ] [ N0S4A2 ] [ sneak ] 11:06 [ [d__d] ] [ cfields_ ] [ gnusha_ ] [ jtimon ] [ nanotube ] [ so ] 11:06 [ [Derek]_ ] [ ciege ] [ go1111111 ] [ justanotheruser] [ nba_btchip ] [ sparetire ] 11:06 [ _whitelogger ] [ cluckj ] [ grandmaster ] [ K1773R ] [ neha ] [ sparetire_ ] 11:06 [ a5m0 ] [ cocoBTC ] [ grantsmith ] [ kanzure ] [ nephyrin ] [ spinza ] 11:06 [ AaronvanW ] [ CodeArtix ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ kaptah ] [ nickler ] [ Starduster ] 11:06 [ adam3us1 ] [ CoinMuncher ] [ gribble ] [ katu ] [ nsh- ] [ stevenroose ] 11:06 [ adams__ ] [ comboy ] [ grubles ] [ Keefe ] [ null_radix ] [ stonecoldpat1] 11:06 [ adlai ] [ Cory ] [ Guest1234 ] [ keus ] [ nwilcox|afk ] [ STRML ] 11:06 [ AdrianG_ ] [ coryfields_ ] [ Guest1235 ] [ kinlo ] [ OneFixt_ ] [ SwedFTP ] 11:06 [ AEM ] [ crescend1 ] [ Guest46756 ] [ Kireji ] [ optimator ] [ Taek42 ] 11:06 [ afdudley ] [ crw|away ] [ Guest53307 ] [ kisspunch ] [ otoburb_ ] [ TBI ] 11:06 [ aj ] [ d4de ] [ Guest62454 ] [ koshii ] [ OxADADA ] [ TBI_ ] 11:06 [ Alanius ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ Guest79101 ] [ kumavis ] [ p15 ] [ TD-Linux ] 11:06 [ alexkuck ] [ dansmith_btc ] [ guruvan ] [ kyuupichan ] [ paci ] [ Tenhi ] 11:06 [ alpalp ] [ dave4925_h ] [ Guyver2 ] [ larraboj ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ thrasher` ] 11:06 [ amiller_ ] [ davec ] [ gwillen ] [ lclc ] [ paveljanik ] [ Tiraspol ] 11:06 [ Anduck ] [ davout_ ] [ harding ] [ lecusemble ] [ penjenayah ] [ toomim ] 11:06 [ andytoshi ] [ dEBRUYNE ] [ harrow` ] [ LeMiner2 ] [ petertodd ] [ tripleslash_a] 11:06 [ Apocalyptic ] [ dEBRUYNE_ ] [ hashtagg ] [ livegnik ] [ phantomcircuit ] [ tromp_ ] 11:06 [ archobserver ] [ devrandom ] [ heath ] [ livegnik_ ] [ phy1729 ] [ tromp__ ] 11:06 [ arowser ] [ dgenr8 ] [ helo ] [ lmatteis ] [ pigeons ] [ ttttemp ] 11:06 [ artifexd ] [ digitalmagus8 ] [ humd1ng3r ] [ lnovy ] [ poggy ] [ vdo ] 11:06 [ arubi ] [ dignork ] [ huseby_ ] [ Logicwax ] [ pozitron ] [ warptangent ] 11:06 [ asoltys ] [ DougieBot5000 ] [ ibrightly ] [ lomax_ ] [ PRab ] [ warren ] 11:06 [ badmofo ] [ earthrise ] [ iddo ] [ Luke-Jr ] [ prosody ] [ warren_2 ] 11:06 [ BananaLotus ] [ ebfull ] [ indolering ] [ luny ] [ PsychoticBoy ] [ waxwing ] 11:06 [ bassguitarman] [ Eliel ] [ instagibbs ] [ Mably ] [ publius1788 ] [ weex_ ] 11:06 [ baurusdb ] [ Emcy_ ] [ ir2ivps5 ] [ Madars ] [ Pugg ] [ wizkid057 ] 11:06 [ bedeho__ ] [ epscy ] [ isis ] [ MagikSquirrel ] [ qawap_ ] [ wpalczynski ] 11:06 [ berndj ] [ eric ] [ Jaamg ] [ malte ] [ rasengan ] [ wumpus ] 11:06 [ bildramer ] [ espes ] [ jaromil ] [ mappum ] [ roasbeef ] [ xeon-enouf ] 11:06 [ bitkarma ] [ execute ] [ jbenet ] [ mariorz ] [ robmyers ] [ Xzibit17 ] 11:06 [ blkdb ] [ face ] [ jcorgan ] [ matsjj ] [ roconnor ] [ yang ] 11:06 [ BlueMatt_ ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ jeremias ] [ Meeh_ ] [ runeks ] [ Ylbam ] 11:06 [ bobke ] [ fkhan ] [ Jeremy_Rand ] [ melvster ] [ ryan-c ] [ Yoghur114 ] 11:06 [ BrainOverfl0w] [ fluffypony ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ midnightmagic ] [ s1w ] [ yoleaux ] 11:06 [ brand0 ] [ forrestv ] [ jessepollak ] [ mikolalysenko ] [ sdaftuar ] [ yorick ] 11:06 [ bsm1175321 ] [ frankenmint ] [ jgarzik ] [ mm_1 ] [ seg ] [ zmachine ] 11:06 [ bsm1175322 ] [ gavinandresen ] [ jlrubin ] [ MoALTz ] [ SgtStroopwafel_] [ zmanian_ ] 11:06 [ btcdrak ] [ ggreer ] [ jlyndon ] [ Monthrect ] [ SheffieldCrypto] [ zxzzt ] 11:06 [ Burrito ] [ ghtdak ] [ joesmoe ] [ morcos ] [ shesek ] 11:06 [ c-cex-finch ] [ gielbier ] [ jojva ] [ mountaingoat ] [ sipa ] 11:06 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 268 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 267 normal] 11:06 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 11:06 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 12 secs 11:09 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: mappum, Meeh_, jrayhawk, BlueMatt_, AEM, btcdrak, keus, Pugg, davout_, spinza, (+135 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 11:10 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: sparetire_, badmofo, go1111111, heath, jlrubin, berndj, alexkuck, Ylbam, larraboj, aj, (+76 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 11:10 -!- warren_2 is now known as warren 11:10 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:12 -!- humd1ng3r [~humd1ng3r@ec2-52-1-133-74.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@186-79-11-166.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rqjvrrwnviripsnr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- K1773R 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[~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: hah! i'm torn as to whether i should've gotten that 11:34 -!- lclc_ [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 < andytoshi> (the only reason i would've is that i had the hint "gmaxwell figured this" which should've hinted at what tricks would be used; without that i'd be hopeless, this is insane) 11:35 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@45.79.148.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35 < aj> andytoshi: fwiw, http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000344.html 11:36 -!- lecusemble [~lecusembl@f9beb4d9.violates.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:37 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.239.45] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.239.45] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:37 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:38 < andytoshi> and thanks for writing up our solution aj :) 11:38 -!- jrayhawk [~jrayhawk@unaffiliated/jrayhawk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- sdaftuar_ [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 < aj> andytoshi: don't suppose you went so far as to translate it to actual script? 11:38 < sipa> happy to see you guys were thinking along the same lines as me 11:38 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- Fistful_of_Coins is now known as 16WAASGSV 11:38 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 < sipa> except you actually got somewhere :) 11:39 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: luny`, ebfull, Xzibit17, bsm1175321, hashtagg, TD-Linux, devrandom, lclc, Mably, 16WAASGSV, (+8 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 11:39 < andytoshi> aj: no, not that far, though i was close 11:39 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 < andytoshi> like, i came up with this while studying my script parser, so i was thinking in terms of opcodes anyway 11:40 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:40 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- Netsplit over, joins: STRML 11:40 < andytoshi> but the stack-swapping and equality checking (or duplication) seemed like a lot of work :) 11:40 -!- phy1729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- jouke [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-142-236.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:43 -!- mountaingoat [~mountaing@unaffiliated/mountaingoat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 -!- cocoBTC [~cocoBTC__@c-233a71d5.136-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 < andytoshi> does the cost for renting hw go up if you try to rent a ton at once? aj's mail gives numbers like "grind for a week to steal" but you can't start grinding til you have an output to spend from, and once that exists the CLTV starts ticking 11:44 < andytoshi> so you'll only have hours or so (right?) 11:45 -!- earthrise [~earthrise@S01065404a6902716.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 < sipa> andytoshi: that's pretty ugly still... those times may change significantly over time 11:46 < aj> depends how long the locktime is? some of the handwavy numbers for lightning are relatively high (2 days per hop, 19 hops) 11:47 -!- 5EXAALJ4V [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:47 -!- harding [~harding@mail.dtrt.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 < aj> (you've got to have a pretty strong pre-calculated r for that though) 11:47 < andytoshi> oh, derp, i forgot r can be precalculated 11:47 < andytoshi> so you have unlimited time in which to do that part 11:47 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 < aj> yeah, and you also have to be careful not to use that r to reveal a secret someone else already knows, or to reveal the same secret twice 11:48 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- lecusemble [~lecusembl@f9beb4d9.violates.me] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 < aj> err, "or to avoid revealing the same secret twice" rather 11:49 < andytoshi> well, as soon as you use it everyone knows its discrete log, so then anybody can use it for their own stealing i think 11:50 < andytoshi> i'm unsure what you mean by "revealing the same secret twice" 11:50 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 < afdudley> interdependent secrets is how I read that. 11:51 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51 < aj> as in "what's the preimage for X?" "cheat with r=blah" then later, "what's the preimage for X?" cheat with the same r=blah, combine the two cheats lets you work out r and the preimage for X 11:51 < aj> lets you work out N from r i mean 11:51 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51 < andytoshi> oh, right, i forgot that cheaters don't reveal anything :P 11:52 < andytoshi> yes, you're right, the r is single-use only 11:52 < aj> (once the log of your clever r is known it's no better than g/2) 11:52 < andytoshi> yup 11:52 < aj> r is okay to reuse for different secrets though afaict 11:52 -!- tripleslash_b [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52 -!- katu [kat@lua.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52 -!- Kireji_ [~nospam@biocontact.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 < andytoshi> yes, it is 11:53 < andytoshi> (which is why yours and my solution required 3 sigs instead of 2, as i'd initially thought) 11:53 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 < aj> haha, i got that wrong too :( 11:54 < andytoshi> lol! sounds like we had exactly the same conversation with gmaxwell 11:54 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@eyearesee.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- cfields [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 < andytoshi> so. a good thing about this is that the security is time-sensitive. like, i believe the posted benchmark numbers today but maybe not next year, but i can freely use the scheme today knowing that the window for cheating is limited by the CLTV period 11:56 < andytoshi> secondly, a grinded r can only be used once. so it can only be used to cheat on a single lightning tx (which i think are limited to like $10 worth?) 11:56 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 < aj> hmm? i thought we just agreed a grinded r can be reused on many transactions (as long as the secrets to be revealed are different) ? 11:57 < andytoshi> oh ugh yes 11:57 < aj> it's probably like $15 per tx now 11:57 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: BlueMatt_, spinza, Kireji 11:59 < aj> ("how do i cheat lightning txs?" "you just grind r" "oh, i'v already got that app!") 11:59 < chmod755> what? 11:59 < andytoshi> right aj 12:00 < andytoshi> having a granularity of bytes rather than bits is nice 12:00 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 262 seconds] 12:00 < andytoshi> chmod755: the context of this conversation is https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000344.html 12:00 -!- Fistful_of_Coins [o3u@162.243.79.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 < andytoshi> chmod755: the "SNARKless scheme" is https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000314.html i believe 12:03 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 < andytoshi> chmod755: the goal is an atomic swap without revealing hash preimages, which are bad for privacy as they're trivially linkable 12:12 -!- null_radix 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http://i.imgur.com/yrXcosl.jpg well well well 15:43 < kanzure> didn't we ban you 15:44 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:45 < kanzure> hmm, was a different channel 15:47 -!- TBI_ [~TBI@84.48.195.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- nanasho [~nanasha25@141.39.226.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- jouke [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- o3u [o3u@unaffiliated/o3u] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:49 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Ex-Chat"] 15:50 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has quit [Changing host] 15:50 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:50 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o sipa] by ChanServ 15:50 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*ielo@*.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] by sipa 15:50 -!- ielo was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by sipa [ielo] 15:50 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o sipa] by sipa 15:51 -!- cfields_ 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