--- Log opened Fri Nov 27 00:00:36 2015 00:01 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:02 -!- warren_2 is now known as warren 00:06 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- ttttemp [~ttttemp@pc-5305.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:25 -!- nsh- [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:27 -!- baurusdb [~baurusdb@unaffiliated/baurusdb] has quit [Quit: baurusdb] 00:27 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- p15 [~p15@27.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:30 -!- Netsplit over, joins: harding 00:30 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: OneFixt_, yoleaux, TBI, Myagui, phyl729, ebfull, a5m0, bsm117532, JackH, BrainOverfl0w, (+4 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 00:30 -!- Netsplit over, joins: davec, ebfull, alpalp, JackH 00:30 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[Changing host] 07:59 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 -!- sipa_ is now known as sipa 08:09 -!- bedeho__ [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:12 -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:19 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19 -!- bhollan [~hollabr@177.237.169.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:22 -!- OxADADA [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-123-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:27 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:1523:8c38:5d79:babf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:30 -!- jaekwon_ [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:1523:8c38:5d79:babf] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:43 -!- bhollan1 [~hollabr@2001:0:53aa:64c:2028:d37b:4e12:5654] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- bhollan1 [~hollabr@2001:0:53aa:64c:2028:d37b:4e12:5654] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 08:46 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Kireji_, huseby_, phyl729, katu, Giszmo, Xzibit17, nsh, eudoxia, Piper-Off, frankenmint, (+11 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 08:48 -!- ielo is now known as gmxwell 08:52 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o phantomcircuit] by ChanServ 08:52 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+q *!*ielo@*] by phantomcircuit 08:52 <@phantomcircuit> :P 08:54 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 -!- gmxwell [~ielo@host-92-23-229-8.as13285.net] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 08:54 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:54 < instagibbs> can confirm, picture says verified user 08:56 -!- OxADADA [~OxADADA@alumni-linux.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- N0S4A2 [~weechat@216-243-38-141.users.condointernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- huseby_ [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mbcdzewydadyrhaq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Xzibit17 [sid50165@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mxkcksqrbmqxwryp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- phyl729 [~phy1729@unaffiliated/phy1729] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aekottcgcttrasda] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:212:1ea2::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- malte [~malte@2a00:d0c0:200:0:b9:1a:9c2c:1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- katu [~kat@lua.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- null_radix [~Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-jprcpkqnezlhjobu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Kireji_ [~nospam@biocontact.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57 -!- bedeho__ [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:57 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-q *!*ielo@*] by phantomcircuit 08:57 <@phantomcircuit> instagibbs, damned trolls ;) 08:58 < kanzure> i think amiller has put in a good word for that person but i'm still confused why/how they know each other 09:00 -!- fuc [~fuc@52.ip-192-99-168.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- fuc [~fuc@52.ip-192-99-168.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:02 -!- AEM is now known as aem 09:05 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@37.37-191-175.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:18 -!- nabu [~nabu@104.238.169.56] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@2a01:4f8:200:7025::2] has quit [Changing host] 09:20 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@unaffiliated/jonasschnelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23 -!- kristoff_ [~kristoffe@37.37-191-175.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 -!- bedeho_ [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 -!- Anduck [~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24 -!- Jaamg [~kafrymla@130.233.224.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24 -!- bedeho__ [~bedeho@cm-84.214.5.24.getinternet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:26 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@37.37-191-175.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:27 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: arowser, jaekwon 09:27 -!- jaekwon_ [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:1523:8c38:5d79:babf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- atgreen__ [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:31 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Changing host] 09:39 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:43 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gvpdlllphpeimert] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43 < Taek> It would be interesting to start with a bytecode like moxie and then develop the 'ideal' set of consensus rules 09:43 -!- mariorz_ [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wnslkzkfassbfcwh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:43 < Taek> I'm sort of inspired by lisp, which was an early attempt to build the 'ideal' programming language 09:44 < Taek> and more or less disregarded real-world limitations 09:44 -!- Anduck [~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:46 -!- Netsplit over, joins: arowser 09:46 < adlai> lisp was built around a very specific purpose, which was to axiomatize programming notation. it wasn't even supposed to be implemented... 09:47 < Taek> adlai: I wouldn't have the intention of implementing the 'perfect blockchain' either 09:48 < Taek> but it produce interesting results or useful things that could be applied to Bitcoin 09:48 < Taek> *it may produce 09:51 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vkbtincupaenanej] has quit [] 09:53 < adlai> well, some projects are going in that direction, and you can study them to steal back ideas :P 09:54 < adlai> to me it seems that between prediction markets and hardforks Bitcoin is about as flexible as human endeavor can get 09:54 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-36-133-241-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gkxswqmznzjkwvva] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:54 -!- arowser_ [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:58 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59 -!- arowser_ 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nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47 -!- Jaamg [jhpiloma@gateway/shell/tkk.fi/x-cdwlmaenxwaveeym] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48 -!- justice_ [~textual@HSI-KBW-37-209-26-147.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:51 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:51 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@simmu1-67-92.utaonline.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@simmu1-67-92.utaonline.at] has quit [Changing host] 15:51 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 -!- o3u is now known as Fistful_of_Coins 15:56 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:b90f:c5bb:b0e6:3be1] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 16:01 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 < kanzure> "Amplifying side channels through performance degradation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1141.pdf 16:06 -!- ebfull [~sean@73.34.119.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 < instagibbs> "We show how to use the performance-degradation attack to amplify a side-channel enough to enable exploiting the new information leak. Using the combined attack, an adversary can break a private key of the secp256k1 curve, used in the Bitcoin protocol, after observing only 6 signatures." 16:12 < instagibbs> OpenSSL, fwiw 16:13 < gwillen> o_O wow that's really not so great 16:15 < jcorgan> it's using openssl, so soon to be taken care of 16:15 < sipa> jcorgan: signing has been not-OpenSSL since 0.10 16:15 < katu> kanzure: cache stomping is relevant to all wNAF (and other precomputed ladders) implementations 16:16 < jcorgan> sipa: oh, nice 16:16 < katu> i suspect even even libsecp256k1 has a huge cache footprint? :) 16:16 < instagibbs> its already taken care of, yeah 16:16 < instagibbs> perhaps 16:17 < sipa> katu: no wNAF used in signing, but yes, big cache 16:17 < instagibbs> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_point_multiplication#w-ary_non-adjacent_form_.28wNAF.29_method 16:17 < instagibbs> and not Western National Angus Futurity 16:18 < sipa> katu: but our signing code's memory access patterns are 100% deterministic, and independent of the private key 16:19 < katu> sipa: indeed making compromising optimizations there would not make much sense anyway 16:19 < katu> since signing is far from the bottleneck in usual setting; verification is 16:19 < jcorgan> it begs the question of who runs signing operations on machines subject to this kind of side channel 16:19 -!- Jaamg [jhpiloma@130.233.224.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:19 < sipa> katu: verification uses huge caches, wNAF, and various variable-time tricks :) 16:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:20 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@75-175-72-226.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22 -!- nabu [~nabu@184.7.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 16:22 < katu> sipa: i'm not too familiar with the code, but isnt the only way to be sure writing the whole signing routine in assembly? 16:23 < katu> to make sure the bits of the scalar are not spilled somewhere for flush/reload 16:25 < sipa> katu: i don't think flush/reload matters here... the code executed and the data accessed is independent of the secret 16:25 -!- Jaamg [jhpiloma@130.233.224.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26 < sipa> even if secret bits would spill 16:26 < katu> sipa: wrt https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/140.pdf 16:27 < katu> sipa: just monitor the different memory lines in montgomery ladder (or similiar double-and-add there) 16:27 < gmaxwell> nope. 16:27 < sipa> katu: we don't use a montgomery ladder specifically for that reason 16:27 < katu> ah 16:27 < katu> neat :) 16:28 < sipa> katu: the code executed, and the memory accessed is always independent of the secret 16:28 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:cce0:8669:97ce:1910] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:28 < gmaxwell> The memory accesses are entirely uniform in signing (assuming the compiler does nothing awful; which is something I've hand verified for a particular build-- but isn't promised by C, though it currently appears robust in existing compilers) 16:29 < jcorgan> it's almost like you guys anticipated this and worked yourself silly reimplementing ECDSA properly 16:29 < gmaxwell> (in theory a diabolical optimizing compiler could see through the conditional move structure and turn the accesses into indexing. But no such beast currently exists.) 16:29 < sipa> jcorgan: i guess this is an example where theoretical security people were a step ahead 16:30 < katu> jcorgan: i suspect bitcoin switched to its custom implementation exactly because of the earlier reported attack on openssl impl :) 16:30 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: it's almost as if our source code had comments specifically describing these attacks and Bitcoin Core switched to using ours a year ago. 16:30 < sipa> jcorgan: and the best practice advice had been "make memory accesses uniform" before such attacks became effective enough 16:31 < katu> there are still fun attacks to go around tho, like "listening" to the EM noise from alu 16:32 < katu> (or more likely bits being shuffled on lanes of dram memory bus) 16:32 < gmaxwell> yea, we only have the weakest protections (but none none) against EMI/power sidechannels. TD-Linux was setting up a measurement rig, and got some initial results; but they were contanimated by noise from USB that made it hard to use them.. he should have new results soon. 16:32 < jcorgan> wondered how that went 16:32 < kanzure> katu: or gigahertz radio noise from RAM 16:33 < TD-Linux> yeah new amplifier board built but not tested yet 16:33 < TD-Linux> also connected to a rpi now so I don't move cables around each time I test it 16:33 < sipa> heh, that paper mentions libsecp256k1 and its secp256k1_ecmult function.... but that isn't used for signing 16:33 < gmaxwell> sigh. 16:34 < katu> kanzure: would need some heavy RF equipment than just hobby SDR, but potentially much better bandwith than just low frequency clicks? 16:34 < sipa> it's not technically saying it's vulnerable; it's listing various techniques used 16:34 < katu> sipa: probably made same mistake as me, just poked the code, instead of setting breakpoints 16:35 < sipa> or contacting the authors :p 16:35 < gmaxwell> sipa: good because Yuval knows! We asked him(?) to review our code and he did! (and gave us useful feedback that we used to harden the implementation) 16:36 < sipa> ah! 16:36 < sipa> yes, i remember that; just didn't remember the name 16:36 < gmaxwell> iirc he was the reason we changed from bitslice that was cacheline regular to indexless approach. 16:36 < kanzure> this is why i do my name thing 16:37 < sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, can't remember that; i though that was because of a paper that identified that bitslicing still brings lower indexes earlier available in memory 16:37 < sipa> gmaxwell: but maybe he linked us to that paper 16:38 < gmaxwell> He did, the ones that are cited in the source. 16:40 < gmaxwell> DJB told me at FC15 that there was another paper which did the flush+reload attack with radically fewer than 200 probes, so I guess this is it. Funny that I didn't see this one before. 16:41 < gmaxwell> katu: re "would need some heavy RF equipment than just hobby SDR" the solution TD-Linux is using is to just run the device under test at a very low clockrate, e.g. 2MHz. 16:41 < TD-Linux> also the SD card I put in the new rpi supports DISCARD which is interesting. mkfs.ext4 picked it up and automatically cleared it 16:41 < gmaxwell> And then sampling at a few MHz is fine, esp if driven off a sync clock. 16:41 < katu> gmaxwell: neat :) 16:42 < katu> gmaxwell: though gives skewed image regarding real world practicality (i assume the likes of trezor use internal crystal to prevent this?) 16:42 < TD-Linux> I mean, the goal is to make something practical with a lot of conditions first, then remove the conditions :) 16:42 < gmaxwell> trezor is not really hardened hardened against an attacker with physical access. 16:43 < katu> (by "this" i mean the whole class of glitching attacks) 16:43 < jcorgan> it's harder but you can sample incoherently and recover the clock, then retime the samples 16:43 < gmaxwell> My hope is that we'd be able to make a blind sidchannel measurement for CI, like litterly measuring the cross-correlation between the same and different secrets, and then being able to give a "sidechain energy dB" which is a worst case measurement, and track it as part of CI. 16:44 -!- Jaamg [~kafrymla@130.233.224.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:44 < gmaxwell> katu: trezor has no security against glitching attacks. (in fact for a long time you could just read out the nonce hamming weight by timinig it over usb and be within +/- 1 99% of the time. 16:44 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45 < gmaxwell> (the implementation was so slow that you did not need exotic hardware to do sidechannel attacks on it) 16:45 < katu> gmaxwell: hmm, i vaguely remember talking with stick and he was talking about some sort of hardened TI MCU 16:45 < katu> though i'm completely oblivious about trezor 16:46 < TD-Linux> the CPU I'm using for this is the same as the one in the trezor (stm32f4) 16:46 < katu> ah 16:46 < gmaxwell> katu: it has 'crypto' features which are mostly not useful for bitcoin applications. 16:46 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:46 < TD-Linux> err actually I think trezor is stm32f2, but similar. 16:46 < katu> not EM protected, but glitching is very very old attack 16:47 < katu> i remember cloning sim cards through it mid 2000s :) 16:49 < gmaxwell> I was told last night that someone had managed to use a rare earth magnet to glitch embedded devices. Actually seems like not a terrible idea, you can get a surface field if >1 tesla... then just move it fast over the chip, should cause a fair amount of current. 16:53 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54 -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:58 -!- kang_ [67efe9a9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.239.233.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:23 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has quit [Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in] 17:27 -!- rht___ [uid86914@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cjdngnqsgxfbvjux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@ec2-54-67-38-167.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:35 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:41 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-23-229-8.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42 < bramc> My commentary on modular square roots for proofs of sequential work, pasted from an email: 17:42 < bramc> Modular square roots have the advantage that the checking time for them is super fast. They have the disadvantages that the space of a proof is linear-ish on the time it took to generate, and they might be optimized dramatically in the future, especially if custom hardware is built specifically to be as fast as possible, quadratic blowup of power be damned. On the plus side, at current speeds for and for the amounts of t 17:42 < bramc> ime I want they probably work great. On the downside it's likely that it's possible to get two or three orders of magnitude improvement in their times, which would cause a massive disruption in the short term, and once that speedup has happened the linear relationship will have caused the sizes of proofs to become unacceptably large. On the plus side, I'd view fostering the generation of such hardware and causing it to b 17:42 < bramc> e well optimized to the limits of current technology to be a positive thing in and of itself. 17:42 < bramc> On the whole, the naive approach is still clearly winning, but maybe if the size/time tradeoff could be made exponentialish instead of linearish a more sophisticated approach would win, even if custom hardware has the potential to be massively faster. 17:44 < sipa> why is the proof linear in the time it took to generate? 17:44 < sipa> the proof is just the root of the number, no? 17:45 -!- cocoBTC [~cocoBTC__@c-233a71d5.136-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46 < sipa> also, not every number has a square root 17:52 < bramc> sipa, You do it for something which does have a square root, and the number of modular exponentiations you have to do is based on the length of the modulus in bits 17:52 < kanzure> "John Conway's contributions on mathforum.org (1993-2004)" http://mathforum.org/kb/profile.jspa?userID=526 17:54 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.155.124.87] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:03 < sipa> bramc: i'm aware... but for something like PoW, I would expect that you have to try random inputs 18:04 < sipa> bramc: which means that not only you need to square root quickly, you also need to be able to quickly determine that an input has none :) 18:04 < bramc> sipa: I believe that if you use a group with a generator of 2, then always either x or -x is a quadratic residue, so the result of a challenge is either the square root of x or the square root of -x 18:08 < sipa> right, indeed 18:10 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- dEBRUYNE_ 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