--- Log opened Mon Nov 30 00:00:39 2015
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00:30 < maaku> petertodd: per-output replace-by-fee with plausible deniability could be done by looking at one of the bits of a P2SH or P2PKH hash
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00:31 < maaku> also nice in that the recipient decides whether or not to accept RBF
00:31 < maaku> (I think this is too messy to actually implement, however)
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00:41 < sipa> maaku: that still helps learning which output was change or not
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03:20 < baurusdb> sipa: Are you giving any interesting talks soon?
03:22 < sipa> baurusdb: i'll be talking in hong kong about segregated witness
03:22 < baurusdb> That’s a bit too far from our beloved Belgium
03:23 < stonecoldpat1> baurusdb: it should be live-streamed :)
03:25 < baurusdb> Let’s hope so :D
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06:50 < sipa> test
06:52 < kanzure> pong
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07:38 < bsm117532> So one aspect of using a DAG I'm considering is switching from miner-builds-coinbase to a model where the coinbase payouts are constructed 100 blocks later, by looking at the state of the DAG 100 "blocks" back.  In this model orphans don't exist -- but you can't decide payment unless you wait long enough to see whether simultaneous blocks exist.
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07:39 < bsm117532> What challenges do you see with that?
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07:39 < sipa> bsm117532: i've considered that before for bitcoin, actually
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07:39 < sipa> only make coinbase outputs enter the UTXO set when they mature
07:40 < sipa> though it does mean extra state to carry around outside of the UTXO set, which is less nice
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07:40 < bsm117532> I'm not sure it provides any advantage to bitcoin, by itself.  But it's pretty important in creating proper incentives in a DAG.
07:40 < sipa> especially if you'd want to use the same mechanism for bip65/bip68 outputs
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07:40 < sipa> bsm117532: what difference does it make for you?
07:41 < sipa> in bitcoin it's more an implementation detail (as long as we don't have utxo commitments in some form)
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07:41 < bsm117532> It makes a huge difference.  I'm calling the analog of orphans "siblings", and they would share fees, for instance.
07:41 < bsm117532> The miner can't possibly know of the existence of another miner he needs to share fees with.
07:42 < bsm117532> So it's impossible to make that commitment in the block itself.
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07:47 < bsm117532> Thanks for pointing out CLTV, I haven't been following it closely but I'll take another look.
07:49 < sipa> hmm, so the reason for you is that you can't decide the fees available until waiting some longer time?
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07:53 < bsm117532> Basically.  I wouldn't say "fees available" because it can be calculated from the block, obviously.  What you don't know is the existence of siblings, and the relative amount of work in the sibling.  (I'm using a work-weighted splitting of fees)
07:54 < bsm117532> Might be important to note that a "sibling" can't contain a double-spend or conflicting transaction, unlike a bitcoin orphan.
07:55 < bsm117532> Also unlike GHOST...
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08:27 < aem> tesat
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08:40 < kanzure> https://boompig.herokuapp.com/blog/secret-santa-protocol
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08:42 < kanzure> mutation testing for java/jvm stuff http://pitest.org/ http://pitest.org/faq/
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10:28 < Taek> I like 'Fripple'
10:29 < Taek> and 'Ripple tm'
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11:42 < aj> are there any altcoins whose POW function is to calculate x such that sha256(sha256(x)) has leading bytes of something other than 0's? or mining hardware that supports setting a target prefix for the hash value or similar?
11:43 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] FFFFFFFFCoin
11:43 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] (not to my knowledge)
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11:45 < bsm117532> aj: Why would that matter?
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11:48 < nsh> Distributed Computation as Hierarchy -- http://arxiv.org/pdf/cs/9809019v1.pdf
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11:49 < gmaxwell> aj: I wouldn't be surprised to learn that _some_ hardware existed that made that slightly configurable; but I doubt it would be common.
11:49 < gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: see aj's question; you ever seen something?
11:50 < Luke-Jr> I haven't, but this is something I proposed as a practically-useful hardfork a while back
11:51 < Luke-Jr> particularly, pools would pre-commit to what the leading bits will be (which could be 0s for the hardware side, and something else for the rest) so miners don't have sufficient info to withhold blocks
11:51 < aj> gmaxwell: then doing gigahashes of tries to get a short "s" to break that "reveal private key" scheme probably isn't practical
11:53 < gmaxwell> aj: careful with those assumptions; e.g. someone could repurpose an FPGA to do it; or fabricate a 100nm asic.
11:54 < gmaxwell> aj: I think my awful hack is probably fine for short term use, eventually we'll renable substr (and probably other ways of getting a leakysig).
11:54 < aj> gmaxwell: oh sure. i guess you could get one or two gigahash from a gpu anyway
11:55 < gmaxwell> aj: I don't know if you saw but I did point out in IRC that P must be a contract-hash; to prevent someone from signature recovering {(small),(small)} for a sighash single signature.
12:00 < aj> gmaxwell: a sighash single sig is still one use only though? i don't see how you could enforce P being a contract-hash?
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12:01 < gmaxwell> I send you P.  The protocol uses P' = P+H(P)G for all other steps.
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12:03 < gmaxwell> if the signature I use is r=2,s=2 (or whatnot), no one knows the discrete log of that nonce, and the signature does not reveal the private key.
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12:06 < sipa> jonasschnelli: opinion about asking on bitcoin-qt first startup how much RAM the user wants to make available for chainstate?
12:07 < aj> gmaxwell: ahh... you'd need to know the input txid i'm going to use so you can calculate the sighash_single hash to calculate the P correspodning to r,s=2,2 though. but i guess with lightning that's not implausible
12:09 < gmaxwell> not using the sighash single bug.
12:09 < gmaxwell> in that case it will sign the 'hash'  0x01.
12:10 < aj> ahhh
12:10 < gmaxwell> showing another signature under P should also be sufficient.
12:10 < gmaxwell> (e.g. a signature larger than the threshold.)
12:11 < gmaxwell> sorry I didn't repeat this before, I mentioned it in my original description but didn't catch that you hadn't caught it.
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12:41 < nsh> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG2ESDGwHHY
12:41 < yoleaux> "The Eight Fallacies of Distributed Computing" by Stephen Asbury - YouTube
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14:54 < bramc> On reflection, the optimization of making it so that passthrough nodes in the tree (because they only have children on one side) don't get rehashed is Not Worth It
14:55 < bramc> The proofs of exclusion are massively ridiculously simpler without that, and the amount of space that optimization saves is small, in exchange for a lot of complexity.
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15:54 < bramc> It turns out everything added has to be hashed right off the bat or there's no way to do proofs of non-inclusion
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17:02 < zookolaptop> Taek: are you the taek mentioned in https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia ?
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18:30 < bram__> Okay, here's a trick which is a lot simpler than forcing passthroughs to rehash: When you do the hashing of the terminal, include the depth at which it terminates
18:32 < bram__> That makes the proof checking code utterly brainless
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20:11 < Taek> .tell <zookolaptop> "Taek: are you the taek mentioned in https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia ?" Yes
20:11 < yoleaux> Taek: What kind of a name is "<zookolaptop>"?!
20:11 < Taek> .tell zookolaptop <zookolaptop> "Taek: are you the taek mentioned in https://github.com/NebulousLabs/Sia ?" Yes
20:11 < yoleaux> Taek: I'll pass your message to zookolaptop.
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21:56 < bramc> So for my trick with the depth being given, a proof is a path from the root to a leaf. That leaf includes a depth and a hash. If the thing you're checking for has a prefix in common with the hash in the leaf of a length at least the number of bits in the depth without actually being the leaf then that's a valid proof of non-inclusion
21:57 < bramc> Technically speaking it's necessary for the path to the leaf to be a subsequence of the bits in that prefix, but that's Not Worth Checking
21:58 < bramc> It can be any subsequence because there can be passthrough anywhere in the tree, although skips earlier are strange but possible
21:59 < bramc> This also has the interesting property of making proofs of inclusion and exclusion canonical. I guess that's true of most valid formats. Don't know if that property is good or bad or matters at all
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22:14 < bramc> Conveniently, proofs of inclusion are the exact same format as proofs of exclusion.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 01 00:00:40 2015