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06:30 < kanzure> re: visualization of graph with bandwidth asymmetries between (sometimes mining) nodes. the visualization should be of different flood-attempts from different source nodes. propagation can be shown to get "stuck" in local minimas in convex bandwidth landscape over the graph. competing floods can be shown to occur in some temporal sequence to illustrate point of consensus drift towards higher bandwidth subgraphs. hashrate ...
06:30 < kanzure> ... consolidation can be visualized as some laggy rate of hashrate addition to each miner after every well-confirmed win.
06:31 < kanzure> re: global radio broadcast of blocks, i think the idea should be updated to be specifically for radio broadcast of big weak blocks. for smaller miners, it's way more important to get all the unconfirmed transactions you would have otherwise missed, so that you can construct good IBLT templates beyond what your capacity would have otherwise been. broadcasting solved regular-difficulty blocks is useful but not as useful for keeping ...
06:31 < kanzure> ... smaller miners around.
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06:38 < Dudebro_> Do you know of any good trading platforms that support arbitrage?
06:39 < adlai> Dudebro_: #bitcoin (or maybe #bitcoin-pricetalk )
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10:10 < kanzure> scalingbitcoin livestream will be https://www.bitcoinhk.org/scaling-bitcoin-2015/live/
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10:50 < jcorgan> tks
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12:19 < jcorgan> http://arxiv.org/abs/1511.08756
12:19 < jcorgan> Reverse Engineering Intel DRAM Addressing and Exploitation
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13:41 < jgarzik> Wizards,
13:41 < jgarzik> Has anybody written up designs for a "wallet" does not have complete control over the keys?
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13:41 < jgarzik> A bank that cannot steal from you
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13:42 < belcher> electrum can do this, and other multisig wallet implementations if thats what you mean jgarzik
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13:42 < jgarzik> belcher, a bank, not a multisig wallet
13:42 < jgarzik> partial key custodian
13:43 < jgarzik> only signing "withdrawals" and other conditions if security checks and other criteria succeed
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13:48 < waxwing> jgarzik: greenaddress?
13:48 < waxwing> don't use it but i think they have such features, perhaps only optional though
13:51 < kanzure> doesn't bitcore have something like that? or one of the other bitpay thingies.
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13:54 < zookolap`> jgarzik: 3rd key solutions?
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15:23 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: Rusty: Pieter:  How much will you hate me for stealing bit 30 from the block version? https://people.xiph.org/~greg/bip.draft-maxwell-flagverify.mediawiki
15:25 < bramc> gmaxwell, Why are you making it an 'I'm not a douchebag' signal? Shouldn't it be the opposite, that there's an 'I'm a douchebag' signal?
15:25 < gmaxwell> Because I want the failure mode for non-upgraded software or lazy miners to not signal false confidence.
15:26 < gmaxwell> Also, I don't think douchebag is fair: you're not a douchbag for doing this for brief periods so long as no one is confused about what you're doing.
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15:26 < gmaxwell> I explain in the motivation section that if everyone does this, it makes mining more fair.
15:27 < gmaxwell> I think it's a necessary component along with improved realy for avoiding higher transaction load from creating centeralization pressure.
15:27 < gmaxwell> but maybe I should make that more clear in the abstract.
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15:33 < tromp__> is there any danger of a majority of pools deciding to build only on validation-signalled blocks? which would incentivize douchebags to just outright lie?
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15:35 < gmaxwell> tromp__: I don't believe so; they wouldn't gain from doing so. The document specifically points out that if anyone punishes the miners will just lie and make the signal useless.
15:35 < tromp__> i am assuming of course that a majority of pools is actually fully validating
15:35 < gmaxwell> tromp__: the assumption here is that everyone is fully validating; but the could not have completed their validation 1 millisecond after a new block arrived.
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15:36 < tromp__> ah yes; i found your observation in the block of text
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15:37 < gmaxwell> not fully validating at all is (hopefully) not economically rational; but not waiting on validation often is... as it can have a huge impact on orphaning that you can't easily faster-cpu yourself out of.
15:38 < bramc> gmaxwell, So the idea is that you signal not fully validated if you happen to 'get lucky' and find a new block before the old one had a chance to finish validation?
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15:39 < gmaxwell> Yes.
15:39 < tromp__> looks well thought out. just ugly to use the version field for this. is there any intention for use of negative version values (use of bit 31) ?
15:39 < gmaxwell> tromp__: negative versions can't be used; because ... the version was defined to be >1 without thinking about the fact that it was signed.
15:40 < gmaxwell> So now BIP 31 is the hardfork bit. :)
15:40 < gmaxwell> er BIT not BIP
15:41 < gmaxwell> Hm okay, but in light of that perhaps I should not give the >= example; I did that because in prior BIPs people complained that they didn't understand bit operations.
15:41 < kanzure> oops better streaming link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdghS32TeZU
15:41 < gmaxwell> (in light of the fact that a hardfork might recover bit 31).
15:42 < tromp__> why not steal a least significant bit? version 2*k is nonvalidated, 2*k+1 is validated. that preserves version ordering
15:43 < gmaxwell> bramc: Another way of looking at this, never setting the flag at all is lame but no more anti-social than intentionally producing very small blocks... we get along okay with that.
15:44 < gmaxwell> tromp__: versionbits (BIP 9) basically redefines the version field as a bitfield. We don't consider monotone versions very compatible with a decenteralized system. (or hell, a distributed one)... monotone ordering doesn't let us have multiple changes in flight at once. :)
15:45 < gmaxwell> If the version bits people tell me to set the LSB instead, I will.
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15:46 < tromp__> btw, author is missing a 2nd 'l' :)
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15:48 < gmaxwell> tromp__: somehow I don't think he'll mind.
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15:56 < kanzure> example code here is really lacking comments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_signature#Implementation
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15:58 < bramc> proofs of inclusion/exclusion can be done much more efficiently when batches. I am NOT supporting that right now.
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18:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-2015-11-09-mining-and-block-size-etc/
18:20 < TD-Linux> wow that video looks terrible
18:21 < kanzure> this problem is solved by using the transcript instead
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18:34 < TD-Linux> the audio is also great which is what matters
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20:26 < Taek> Kanzure: I don't fully understand your comments about large weak blocks, so we may have to go back and forth a few times before we are on the same page
20:27 < Taek> That said, the idea behind mandatory weak blocks is to bound the 'race size' of a newly discovered block
20:27 < Taek> Currently, in an adversarial setting, the race size is the full block
20:28 < kanzure> max weak block size is not going to be dramatically larger than max big block size before eating up all of the benefits of using weak blocks at all
20:28 < Taek> Define dramatically - I think we could see a 10x throughput increase
20:29 < kanzure> i was not talking about throughput increase though?
20:29 < Taek> Oh
20:29 < kanzure> dramatic was in reference to size comparison between weak block max size to big block max size
20:30 < kanzure> assuming scenario of big blocks with weak blocks
20:31 < Taek> It's the size of the diff over the previous weak block that matters, because all you are sending around is the diff
20:32 < aj> kanzure: what are "big blocks" ?
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20:34 < kanzure> eh they are just useful to identify that i am talking about block size issues
20:35 < aj> kanzure: i thought the idea was weak blocks are the same size as big blocks, but they allow any blocks (real ones or weak ones) to be sent efficiently as deltas
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20:35 < Taek> aj: varies by proposal, weak blocks are an entire class of proposals
20:35 < Taek> *informal proposals
20:36 < kanzure> aj: most of my statements can be found in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-12-02.log
20:36 < kanzure> aj: at the moment my head is full of fluff about cryonics and large-scale automated animal breeding facilities, something about animal throughput bottlenecks is interfering with me thinking about bandwidth asymmetries on bitcoin network graph so uh.. give me a few minutes or something.
20:36 < kanzure> or, actually, prefer the version of me saying things in that log
20:38 < rusty> Taek: note that in HK I'm only referring to weak blocks for encoding purposes, none of the compulsory stuff...
20:38 < kanzure> "viscosity of animal bytes/sec? what?"
20:38 < rusty> kanzure: that's "animal bites".
20:39 < kanzure> oh is that what it is
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21:30 < Taek> The flagverify proposal looks solid to me, the only worry being that people will assume that the flag means they don't also need to validate.
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21:30 < Taek> But I don't think that's a substantial issue
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21:34 < gmaxwell> I think it's a good idea (obviously) but I don't think it's survial odds are good.
21:40 < gmaxwell> oh I renamed it so the formating wouldn't get munged, sorry. http://people.xiph.org/~greg/bip.draft-maxwell-flagverify.mediawiki.txt
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22:05 < rusty> gmaxwell: " Because there is no consensus enforced behavior there is no special  deployment strategy required.  " Except BIP9 needs consideration.
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22:09 < gmaxwell> rusty: Yes, indeed, thats why I'm asking here before posting; what do you want me to do for BIP9?
22:10 < rusty> gmaxwell: I think we should play Bit Chicken!  Whoever gets implemented first wins, and the other one has to choose a new bit! :)
22:11 < gmaxwell> OKAY.
22:11 < rusty> gmaxwell: or, we could modify BIP9 to exclude <somebit>.  Post-BIP9, you need to use a soft fork process to deploy this.
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22:11 < gmaxwell> Yea, I was thinking we'd just make BIP9 don't-care that bit. or shift over the BIP9 flag... if this doesn't get instantly flamed to death on the list.
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22:14 < rusty> gmaxwell: it's not quite RFC 3514, but maybe people will resist.  I'm happy with downshifting BIP9 to a "00x1" prefix.
22:16 < gmaxwell> my concern is that people will split into OK, {but it can't be enforced, it may mislead}, {but they must validate, this endorses not validating!} ... but we'll see.
22:16 < gmaxwell> I expect that 1:1 I could convince everyone, but if the initial impressions are bad it won't have legs.
22:17 < aj> gmaxwell: typo: "only or two confirmations" <-- missing "one"
22:17 < rusty> It might be premature?  Once we have fraud proofs, it's easier to say "OK not to validate, please set bit"/
22:18 < gmaxwell> rusty: already ~>50% of the hashpower is not validating for non-trivial amounts of time, from what I can determine.
22:19 < gmaxwell> Also in response to the BIP66 forking incident about 1001 technical people immediately responded suggesting that miners just do it for limited times, as if it was no big deal.
22:19 < rusty> gmaxwell: perhaps we need to release (a version of?) core which facilitates that then?
22:20 < rusty> gmaxwell: and (of course) clears the bit.
22:21 < gmaxwell> Yes absolutely. I decided to write the BIP because several people suggested implement validation free in core.
22:21 < gmaxwell> And I don't think its wise or safe to do it without at least trying to signal.
22:21 < rusty> gmaxwell: makes sense.  The two are reasonable together.
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22:35 < CodeShark> the only caveat is for thin client developers...to not assume that a set bit means everything is perfectly fine
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22:36 < CodeShark> it's hard to find an exploit...but it's easy to see how people might still botch things up inadvertently
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22:38 < gmaxwell> It does tell you not to trust it and explains several reasons why. but yea, ... but I think the same people today will just not even think validation free mining is possible (much less common...)
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 04 00:00:43 2015