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00:45 < jl2012> sipa: for the witness commitment format, you don't really need to spend 1 byte to indicate the depth of the tree
00:46 < jl2012> you can encode it with the nonce
00:48 < jl2012> um....forget it....it just effectively reduces the space of the nonce
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05:28 < maaku_> ripple trade is no more : https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15818
05:28 < maaku_> can we haz the ripple name back plz?
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08:23 < JackH> they are moving into blockchain
08:23 < JackH> where the big money is
08:24 < JackH> I wonder what will happen when everyone realizes that it all doesnt matter and that nothing can compare to Bitcoin
08:24 < JackH> and even when they integrate with "blockchain" Bitcoin still wont go away
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09:27 < jl2012> I'm studying http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
09:27 < jl2012> Could we use duplex payment channel now? or do we also need segwit?
09:28 < sipa> we need ntxid or segwit
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09:36 < JackH> is ntxid exlusively needed for duplex channels, or does it apply to lightning as well?
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09:46 < jl2012> sipa: didn't they say we have "level 1 LN" with CLTV? So the "level 1 LN" is not based on the duplex channel?
09:46 < JackH> they are different projects, but what I understand myself is that CSV is level 2 for LN
09:47 < JackH> while the ntxid is for duplex exclusively? that I am not sure of
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09:48 < JackH> ntxid strips the signatures from the tx id's
09:48 < jl2012> segwit is effectively ntxid, afaik
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09:49 < JackH> yes but I believe its also much more than that
09:50 < JackH> normalized tx ids have been planned since mtgox
09:52 < jl2012> the ntxid for mtgox has no consensus meaning
09:52 < JackH> true
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09:57 < jl2012> sipa: for your segwit implemention, you restrict the length of the segwit script to 2-41 bytes. Does it mean if one wants to have a multisig witness programme with P2SH, he must use the version 0x01 witness programme? So that becomes a double P2SH?
09:57 < phantomcircuit> JackH, lightning is hash locked duplex micropayment channels
09:58 < phantomcircuit> if you can get the duplex micropayment channels to work the hash locking will work
09:58 < phantomcircuit> the issue currently is that the channel open transaction can be mutated which would cause both participants funds to be locked up until both parties signed the new transaction
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09:59 < phantomcircuit> the problem with that is if the payments are imbalanced or the time priority of money is imbalanced then one participant can effectively hold the others money hostage
10:00 < phantomcircuit> jl2012, ^
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10:02 < jl2012> thanks. I think I still have a lot to read
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10:03 < sipa> jl2012: yes, there is no reason to put complex scripts in the scriptPubKey
10:05 < phantomcircuit> sipa, as in all outputs should be using p2sh, not that the logical script pub key would never need to be complex, correct?
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10:05 < sipa> right
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10:07 < jl2012> why 41 bytes? 1 version + (1+32) hash + 7 anything else?
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12:22 < JackH> phantomcircuit, thanks for the clarification for duplex
12:22 < JackH> any idea when we have hash locks?
12:22 < phantomcircuit> JackH: today?
12:22 < phantomcircuit> they're not standard but you can do that today
12:23 < JackH> wait, this is now possible?
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12:23 < JackH> duplex can work 100%?
12:23 < phantomcircuit> no
12:23 < phantomcircuit> hash locks work today
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12:23 < JackH> yes CTLV
12:23 < phantomcircuit> duplex micropayment channels 99% work today, but can be held hostage in the event of a mutated transaction
12:23 < JackH> and for that we need ntx right?
12:24 < phantomcircuit> they're technically different things
12:24 < phantomcircuit> either consensus enforced ntx or sw
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12:24 < phantomcircuit> which are pretty similar in practice
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12:33 < sipa> phantomcircuit: have you read cdecker's duplex micropayment channels?
12:34 < phantomcircuit> sipa: i did but i cant honestly say i remember much from it
12:35 < phantomcircuit> you're speaking of this right? http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
12:37 < sipa> yes, just asking because i have nkt, but i know it's more eliborate than what you'd expect from the name
12:37 < sipa> elaborate
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15:52 < bramc> Info on cache misses. I'm mostly shooting for avoiding L1/L2 cache misses: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1126529/what-is-the-cost-of-an-l1-cache-miss
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16:44 < bramc> Observations for today: (1) You can check if something is included faster if you aren't making a proof, because in a balanced section of the tree you can skip down (2) marking something as being empty by giving it a special value is a lot more shit to check than marking it in the medatada byte
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19:18 < maaku_> duplex channels work with CLTV, but are only efficient with certain usage assumptions, since the tradeoffs of timelock vs safety are annoying
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19:33 < jl2012> i think the duplex channel is a realization of Satoshi's original vision with nSequence, consensus enforced.  Can't wait for OP_CSV and segwit
19:35 < jl2012> my guesstimation is CSV in 2 months and segwit in 6 months?
19:37 < aj> jl2012: i'd guess 3 months for CSV (xmas, ny, cny...)
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19:38 < jl2012> I don't include the time for miner upgrade. So Chinese new year is irrelevant
19:38 < aj> jl2012: oh, i don't count it as done 'til miners upgrade :)
19:39 < aj> jl2012: but in that case, yeah, sounds pretty reasonable
19:39 < jl2012> but yes, don't assume Chinese miners do anything in Feb
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