--- Log opened Thu Dec 17 00:00:39 2015
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06:33 < maaku> sipa / phantomcircuit : how does one efficiently prove that the merkle-sum-tree or backlink tree roots are random junk?
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06:40 < aj> maaku: isn't that trying to prove a negative? (ie, you prove that they're not random junk, or you don't do anything?)
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06:58 < sipa> maaku: you can't
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07:07 < jl2012> sipa: why do we need a commitment for witness hash at all? As long as one could produce a valid witness for a given tx, the actual content of the witness is irrelevant. If you need to calculate the block size or sigop etc, all you need is to commit these constraints. You don't even need to commit the actual number -- just the upper limit is enough. E.g., the
07:07 < jl2012> witness of input X of tx Y must not be larger than Z bytes, and Z will be used for the purpose of block size.
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07:08 < aj> sipa: okay, call me stupid for not being able to find it myself, but can you point me at where the 75% discounting for witness data happens?
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07:08 < sipa> aj: not yet implememted
07:08 < aj> sipa: aww man!
07:09 < aj> sipa: so am i right in thinking the current code just has no (consensus) limits on witness data?
07:09 < jl2012> There is a benefit not to commit the witness hash. As witness is malleable, the witness in your mempool may not be same as mine. If you find a block, you need to send the witness to me. Without commitment, you don't need to
07:10 < sipa> jl2012: in blocks? you need to be able to judge whether a relayer tampered with the block or the block itself was truly invalid
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07:12 < sipa> aj: correct
07:13 < sipa> jl2012: IBLT solves that too
07:13 < sipa> jl2012: ah, i see your point
07:14 < aj> sipa: yay! +1 for me!
07:14 < sipa> aj: good, someone actually reading the code :)
07:16 < aj> sipa: closer to grepping than reading :( but better than nothing!
07:16 < jl2012> sipa: so does it really work without witness commitment? Or BIP62 standardness is enough?
07:18 < Taek> please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that because the witness data is no longer a part of the txid, it does not matter that witnesses are malleable?
07:18 < maaku> sipa: right it's a specific case of "i can't fetch the whole block!"
07:18 < maaku> n/m
07:18 < sipa> Taek: the block commits to the witness data
07:18 < sipa> Taek: the txid does not.
07:19 < Taek> right, which means the witness that ends up in the block might not be the exact witness that I broadcast to the txn network
07:19 < sipa> jl2012: i don't understand
07:19 < maaku> Taek: "it does not matter" is application specific
07:19 < aj> sipa: so one other thing i wondered. obviously old nodes will consider a transaction with a segwit output non-standard and won't relay it; but afaics an old node will happily relay a transaction spending a segwit input to a non-segwit output (ie, empty scriptsig, P2PKH/P2SH scriptpubkey) as standard, but then won't be able to provide the witness. that seems suboptimal to me as far as safe soft-forking
07:19 < aj> goes, and i wonder if requiring scriptSig = [OP_SEGWIT] might be better than scriptSig = [] ?
07:20 < Taek> maaku: do you have an example of an application where witness malleability might pose a problem?
07:20 < maaku> Taek: but it'd be a pretty contrived application that dependended on the exact serialized bits of the witness
07:20 < Taek> :)
07:20 < jl2012> sipa: I mean, is applying BIP62 as standardness rules enough to solve the problem of witness malleability?
07:21 < maaku> Taek: it's quite simple to make such an application, even one that *sounds* like a good idea to uninformed ears (e.g. a colored coin scheme that did a sort of pay-to-contract thing entirely within the witness)
07:21 < aj> maaku: maybe miners should deliberately run peephole optimisations over witnesses so they can pack in as much witness data as possible?
07:22 < maaku> Taek: but a proposal I would actually suggest or feel comfortable using? no can't think of one. (but it's late in this timezone, so maybe that's why)
07:22 < Taek> maaku: fair, time may reveal innovations that make witness malleability annoying
07:22 < maaku> jl2012: no BIP62 is insufficient
07:23 < maaku> in particular there is nothing that can be done to prevent signer malleability
07:23 < jl2012> maaku: my concern is only in block relay
07:23 < maaku> (it is a property of ECDSA that I can create multiple different signatures for the same message)
07:24 < bramc> It turns out I was being a little too cute with completely skipping levels of the tree which don't have things on both sides. You need some kind of hashing at every bit to make proofs of non-inclusion simple.
07:24 < maaku> jl2012: I don't understand the connection
07:24 < aj> jl2012: the node that's relaying the block could have the private key for one of the transactions in the block, and malleate it while relaying if there's no commitment
07:24 < maaku> witness needs to be committed to for certain fraud proofs if nothing else
07:24 < aj> jl2012: (i've no idea if that would actually be bad)
07:25 < jl2012> maaku: consider an attacker keep mutating witness they see. Although we may have the same tx, the witness in my mempool may not be the same as yours. When you find a block, if witness is committed, you must send your version of witness to me. That could be annoying
07:26 < maaku> jl2012: more annoying: the block doesn't commit to the witness, and now an SPV node has no way of verifying witness data as being correct
07:27 < aj> jl2012: ah, maybe: without a commitment tree for witness data, it's hard to verify the data fits in the limits?
07:28 < jl2012>  If you need to calculate the block size or sigop etc, all you need is to commit these constraints. You don't even need to commit the actual number -- just the upper limit is enough. E.g., the witness of input X of tx Y must not be larger than Z bytes, and Z will be used for the purpose of block size.
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07:31 < jl2012> maaku: for SPV nodes,  there could be 2 scenarios: 1. witness committed but no one send you the witness; 2. witness not committed and someone send you a wrong one, which does not match the tx . Are both attack effectively the same?
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07:32 < jl2012> In either case, the SPV node doesn't know if the tx is valid or not
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07:35 < jl2012> ok, maybe you are right. without commitment, one could not *prove* a tx is invalid
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07:51 < sipa> sorry, i dropped off
07:51 < sipa> bip62 is indeed insufficient to prevent malleability
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07:53 < sipa> though with segwit + witness commitments, i guess all you can accomplish by malleating is making your transaction harder to relay by IBLT etc, as you introduce multiple versions on the network obly one of which gets picked
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08:01 < nsh> .seen gmaxwell
08:01 < yoleaux> I saw gmaxwell 14 Dec 2015 07:45Z in #bitcoin-wizards: <gmaxwell> yea, and 10 layers is a lot, if you're assuming 16 layers of "common data"
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08:21 < Taek> I'm looking for an example of rationally-motivated breaks of protocols in decenralized systems
08:21 < Taek> A real world example of a stake-grinding attack on a POS coin would be helpful, but I'm having trouble finding one
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08:22 < zookolaptop> Taek: :-)
08:25 < fluffypony> Taek: I think most of them are too disinteresting to attackers motivated enough to do so
08:25 < Taek> fluflypony: I thought that peercoin was subject to one at some point? Maybe I am remembering incorrectly
08:26 < fluffypony> plus why bother with stake grinding when you can just use an exploit Bitcoin fixed that the coin hasn't
08:26 < fluffypony> Taek: ^^ that's what happened to Peercoin
08:26 < jgarzik> Peercoin has had to lock in several checkpoints due to attacks
08:27 < fluffypony> yeah, Peercoin has centralised consensus :-P
08:27 < Taek> jgarzik: do you have any links discussing the attacks?
08:27 < Taek> that's exactly the type of thing I'm looking for, even if it's not specifically stake grinding
08:27 < jl2012> the POS coin?
08:28 < jl2012> I can't remember details of any altcoin except Litecoin
08:31 < pigeons> peercoin clients, at least at one time, trusted a hard-coded key to sign blocks that would checkpoint which chain the developer controlling the key determined were official
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11:27 < adlai> Taek: what about multipool-mediated deaths? miners aren't strictly breaking the protocol, but they are acting to maximize a profit metric outside the system, and it results in the system becoming unusable
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11:31 < Taek> adlai: I'm not sure exactly what you are refering to by 'multipool-mediated deaths'
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11:49 < bsm1175321> I had a fun idea in the shower and noodled about it. http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/
11:50 < bsm1175321> Ok back to real work...
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12:18 < bramc> The nice thing about forcing a hash at every level of the tree even when there's nothing on one of the sides is that it almost completely eliminates all games which you can play with malformed trees
12:19 < zookolaptop> It certainly does if you mix in the level or the node number or something into the input of the hash.
12:20 < zookolaptop> Gotta run.
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12:24 < bramc> That information is redundant when the path to the root is forced. All you need is a clear distinction between terminal and intermediary nodes
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12:28 < Taek> bramc: are you familiar with the structure of the Merkle trees in RFC 6962? I think it does a pretty good job of eliminating abuse patterns
12:28 < Taek> one thing that gets enforced is that leaf nodes have a '0' prepended to the hash, and branch nodes have a '1' prepended to the hash
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12:30 < bramc> Taek, I'm using a patricia trie to make diffs between successive generations small
12:32 < bramc> But yes, I'm using a single byte prepended which specifies which of the two sides are included and whether they're terminal
12:32 < bramc> It being patricia is what creates this funny case where sometimes one of the two sides has nothing in it
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13:06 < bramc> As part of redesigning my format *again*, right now every node is stored using a type byte and two (or in some cases one) hashes. The type byte can be either pass0, meaning there's nothing in the 1 position, pass1 which is similar, term0 meaning the thing in the 0 position is terminal and the other is a branch, term 1 meaning the other way, termboth meaning both, and single which is a value only valid at the root of a tr
13:06 < bramc> ee containing exactly one item
13:09 < bramc> When a side is terminal it's hashed once before being hashed into the node. The node is a hash of the type byte concatenated with the two child hashes or one if there's only one.
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13:10 < bramc> Keeping the metadata in the type byte makes implementation a lot less ugly. It's possible to indicate some metadata by special values in implementation, but yech, and since one byte is way more than enough there's no need to be stingy on what's included.
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13:19 < bramc> Actually I'm still using some special values, there's EMPTY and INVALIDATED for hashes, and a special value for a child block being a branch rather than a leaf in the position indicator. Those seem more logical there.
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14:29 < bramc> There's a logical order to writing these functions. First you write the confirmation of inclusion/exclusion proof free-standing functions, then the get_root() method, then the is_included method, then I'm not sure because I haven't gotten up to it yet, I keep having to start over.
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14:31 < adlai> Taek: multipools are pools which track exchange rates for garbage altcoins and send miners the most profitable work at any given moment. it's actually a complicated task, they have to divide up work between the coins carefully so as not to instantly murder each coin they mine
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14:34 < adlai> "One conclusion that stands out is that we are responsible for a significant proportion of many networks' hashrate, but we only exceed 50% for 20 of the 165 coins we mine." http://forums.prohashing.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=659
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14:40 < bramc> adlai, Now only able to defraud 12% of altcoins with impunity!
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14:43 < MRL-Relay> [shen] I haven't heard of any of those on that list besides litecoin, -one is named "Ripoffcoin" how can these be real
14:43 < adlai> there's something almost admirable about defrauding ipsos fraudsteros
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14:46 < bramc> They're sticking with scrypt-based altcoins, which is a good business move on their part, but it makes me sad that so few people making altcoins understand the difference between a proof of work scheme and a password hashing scheme
14:47 < bramc> adlai, I doubt those miners are actually defrauding anybody. They're mostly contributing to the stability and legitimacy of those pump and dumps.
14:47 < bsm1175321> bramc: That's about the only "innovation" in the entire space, mucking around with the PoW function.  It's really irrelevant. :-/
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14:48 < adlai> well, they distort the "altcoin developer"'s coin distribution plans, if any of them plan things out that far
14:49 < bramc> I think most of the pump and dumps these days are cow systems, to avoid that pesky distributed security problem.
14:52 < bramc> bsm1175321, My innovation in proofs of work to make them memory hard: Instead of using X as your proof of work, it's X plus three more bytes, call them q, and the work value is p(X)^p(X^q)
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14:55 < bramc> How well this would make COTS compete with custom hardware is unclear, but at least it's an interesting idea, and merely doubles verification time instead of making it glacial.
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14:57 < bramc> Cuckoo is an even more interesting idea, but harder to explain and results in much larger proofs
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15:23 < adlai> bramc: what's COTS?
15:23 < bramc> adlai, Common Off The Shelf
15:23 < bramc> generally refers to hardware
15:24  * adlai nods
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20:05 < rgrant> kanzure: (and others) have you heard of any proposals based on constant orphan risk?
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20:24 < kanzure> rgrant: no way to enforce that due to bandwidth asymmetries
20:24 < kanzure> unmeasurable bandwidth asymmetries, too. and no global synchronous clock.
20:24 < kanzure> well, i mean, no timely global synchronous clock.
20:25 < kanzure> my reason is wrong but the sentiment is correct
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20:36 < rgrant> kanzure: since orphans are not cheap, they should make a good metric, and the question is whether they're meaningful.  if miners a few hops away are penalized by larger blocks, then they should be able to prove their discontent by registering orphans somewhere.  if the block dynamics are adjusted every two weeks, then cose timing shouldn't matter.
20:37 < rgrant> *cose -> close (or accurate)
20:39 < rgrant> miners may decide to join a larger pool rather than bother registering orphans somewhere, in which case the orphan rate may go down, but that is also the case where the miners have decided for themselves to centralize.  this is the idea's flaw: it doesn't incentivize miners not to centralize; it only helps those who don't centralize.
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21:33 < Taek> adlai: that's excellent, thanks
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22:00 < kanzure> "register their orphans some where"- what? or, what place would that be? and what meaning would it have
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22:10 < aj> kanzure: it would be at the orphanage, obvs!
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22:11 < el33th4x0r> you know, those blocks are technically not orphans. they have parents.
22:11 < Luke-Jr> I think he meant stale blocks
22:12 < el33th4x0r> that's a much better term!
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22:15 < sipa> aj: gah, you too... i specifically addresses the problem jtoomim brought up in my mail, under section 2... it seems nobody reads further than section 1 to which it does not apply
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22:18 < aj> sipa: i think it's already solved without needing to mark "incoming transactions as "uncertain history"", since the incoming transactions will be invalid under the new rules and non-standard under the old rules?
22:19 < aj> sipa: ie, i think i'm making a stronger claim of soft-fork safety than you did?
22:21 < bramc> Is there a term in Japan for an old person who has no children or relatives to take care of them?
22:24 < el33th4x0r> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute
22:25 < sipa> aj: fair enough... it's not a very useful argument in the first place; it's discussing why a discouraged and ckearly unsafe practice is not made less secure by softforks :)
22:28 < aj> sipa: "clearly unsafe practice" -- accepting unconfirmed mempool transactions? yeah... but people seem to care about it anyway
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22:29 < aj> sipa: i really don't get how people think hard forking is any better. "with a hard fork, everyone just upgrades" "but if everyone just upgrades, a soft fork is fine too" >_<
22:30 < aj> el33th4x0r: ouch
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23:06 < rgrant> was using this definition: https://blockchain.info/orphaned-blocks  Valid blocks which are no longer part of the longest chain are also commonly called stale blocks.
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23:13 < bramc> I think 'abandoned block' is the most accurate description. Not very poetic though.
23:14 < sipa> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5859/what-are-orphaned-and-stale-blocks/5869#5869
23:15 < bramc> With the recent quick acceptances of soft forks, I would hope that opt-in replace by few can get accepted quickly as well. But opt-in rbf isn't even a soft fork. It's... a convention?
23:16 < sipa> yes
23:16 < sipa> better: a convention that doesn't impact you if you don't opt into it...
23:17 < rgrant> to register an orphaned/stale/abandoned block, create an OP_RETURN with its hash, as soon as possible.  Maybe keep the whole block, if necessary for additional verification.  When computing the next difficulty, also compute whether the blocksize is creating a disadvantage for miners without the best connectivity, by adding up the orphaned/stale/abandoned blocks and normalizing for the observed hash
23:17 < rgrant> rate.  If there are too many orphans, reduce the blocksize.  That's the idea.
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23:22 < el33th4x0r> keeping track of all orphans would be great for detecting selfish mining (SM), by the way. at the moment, they are pruned inside the network, so it's hard to build a reliable SM detector.
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23:57 < bramc> sipa, So should miners vote on opt-in rbf or... should people just start doing it?
--- Log closed Fri Dec 18 00:00:40 2015