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00:04 < midnightmagic> people should just start doing it. the miners can then just step directly into a network which already supports it, and when they mine the replaced tx, there's the support for it.
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00:22 < bramc> Maybe what's needed is for the reference code be set to switch on opt-in rbf at a specific block height
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03:50 < wumpus> it is a local policy decision that every node and miner can make for themselves by running software that supports it. there's no need to 'vote' on it
03:51 < wumpus> well, in a way you vote by supporting it and vote against it by refusing to use RBF logic in your mempool, that's the most basic kind of vote, ideas propagate by being applied
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04:11 < Luke-Jr> wumpus: +1
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07:14  * Taek wonders if someone should write a blocksize.pdf
07:15 < adam3us> maybe an FAQ
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07:33 < kanzure> Taek: well there's definitely a ton of source material available.....
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07:41 < harding> I wrote a FAQ aimed at users (not wizardly thinking), but it took a lot of time and nobody read it, so I never bothered keeping it updated.  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability_FAQ
07:46 < kanzure> ah perhaps i'll start linking to some of those answers
07:46 < kanzure> instead of typing new answers
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07:52 < el33th4x0r> harding: very nice sumary. would love to see Bitcoin-NG added to that discussion.
07:53 < el33th4x0r> harding: would you incorporate text on Bitcoin-NG into the FAQ if we provided it to you?
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07:57 < harding> el33th4x0r: it's a wiki page, please feel free to edit it.  If you can't do that, sure I'd be happy to add something about NG.
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07:57 < el33th4x0r> harding: can anyone edit? i thought access was restricted.
07:58 < sipa> anyone can edit afaik
07:58 < el33th4x0r> fantastic, thanks.
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07:58 < harding> el33th4x0r: you just need to follow the instructions here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Bitcoin_Wiki:Editing_privileges
07:59 < harding> Since you're already on IRC, that should be pretty easy. :-)
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08:00 < el33th4x0r> harding: will do, thank you.
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08:09 < instagibbs> Someone should make sure it isn't too glowing ;) (I should probably give it a once-over regardless)
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08:10 < instagibbs> "it" being the wiki, not just NG
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09:00 < alex_leishman> Hey greg, sipa and anyone else who wants to chime in: I want to follow up with the conversation regarding implementing BLS aggregate signatures we had last week.
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09:01 < alex_leishman> as context for anyone else, this was the idea that we could aggregate all signatures in a block into a single signature that could be validated by calculating the all <pk, m> pairings
09:02 < alex_leishman> this would allow us to replace all signatures in a block with a single signature
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09:02 < alex_leishman> the downside is that the pairing calculations are ~7 times slower than the current ECDSA verify we have
09:03 < alex_leishman> What I wanted to propose is that any transaction seen by the network can have it's pairings pre-calculated before a block is found
09:04 < alex_leishman> greg, i think you mentioned that this method couldn't apply here, but I'm not sure why
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09:05 < alex_leishman> its*
09:07 < alex_leishman> to validate a block, we calculate the pairing of the fixed point g, and the aggregate signature: <g, sig_agg>
09:09 < alex_leishman> we then compare this with the product of all of the pairings <pk_i, H(m_i)>, where pk_i is the pubkey for the ith signature and m_i is the signed message/tx.
09:09 < justanotheruser> [6~
09:09 < alex_leishman> the single pairing with the fixed point, g, can be optimized to reduce the calculation time by an order of 2
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09:10 < alex_leishman> the individual pairings <pk_i, H(m_i)> can be pre-calculated by any node that has seen the tx
09:11 < alex_leishman> so unless a miner is propagating a block of previously unknown transactions, most pairings can have already been calculated
09:14 < alex_leishman> in the best case scenario, block validation requires calculation of the single optimized pairing and the product n pre-calculated pairings, where n is the number of signatures contributing to the aggregate signature contained in the block
09:15 < alex_leishman> in the average case, I would guess only a few additional pairings would need to be calculated. Do you have any idea on average how many txs are unseen by nodes in the network before being included in a block?
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09:31 < Eliel> alex_leishman: I don't think the average would mean much because it'd incentivize miners to make sure all included txs are seen by as much of the network as possible.
09:34 < sipa> in a non-adverserial setting
09:35 < sipa> in an adverserial setting, creating a slow-to-validate block is similar to a selfish mining attack
09:35 < sipa> indeally, we want block validation time to be as non-gamable as possible
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09:36 < kanzure> does anyone know which email to bitcoin-dev recently pointed out soft-forks and ANYONECANPAY? search is not finding this for me....
09:36 < Eliel> well, in either case, the average would be meaningless.
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09:38 < kanzure> ah this was sipa's "for a long time" email, nevermind - http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012014.html
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09:38 < instagibbs> yep
09:39 < sipa> kanzure: anyonecanspend, not anyonecanpay
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09:39 < sipa> perhaps i shouldn't have made it look like a sighash type
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09:40 < kanzure> oops. good catch.
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09:46 < alex_leishman> @sipa, I agree. Transmitting a block with a bunch of miner-generated transactions would increase block propagation time if we switched to BLS sigs. But would this be an acceptable tradeoff for the benefits it offers
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09:50 < alex_leishman> sipa: I plan on doing a more thorough engineering analysis of this
09:51 < alex_leishman> I'd love any feedback you have one other parameters and scenarios to consider.
09:51 < alex_leishman> on*
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09:58 < sipa> alex_leishman: what benefit is there?
09:59 < sipa> we're already caching signatures right now, and don't redo thek when seen in a block
09:59 < Eliel> wouldn't that mostly benefit long term storage?
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09:59 < sipa> i may be missing something, but it sounds like you are just increasing the (pre cache) validation time
09:59 < sipa> is there any benefit on top of that?
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10:19 < dgenr8> sipa: presently deployed wallets don't treat anyone-can-spend specially, so changing that would be a preliminary step.  "Not even a mild security reduction" is a pretty high bar.
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10:33 < alex_leishman> sipa: it increases pre-cache validation time, but it removes all signatures from a block. With BLS aggregate sigs only a single aggregate signature needs to be present in a block
10:35 < sipa> alex_leishman: i don't understand
10:35 < sipa> how can it not be present in a block
10:35 < sipa> you need to be able to give the block to someone and they need to be able to verify it
10:36 < sipa> and the time it takes to do that is what matters
10:36 < alex_leishman> ok sorry. let me explain this more clearly. I wasn't very clear about how this works
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10:36 < alex_leishman> suppose for a given block, we have transactions containing n > 0 signatures
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10:37 < alex_leishman> currently all of these signatures must be included in the block when a miner propagates it, as you are obviously aware
10:38 < sipa> yes
10:38 < sipa> or before
10:38 < sipa> (iblt, weak blocks, ...)
10:38 < alex_leishman> sure. but we don't have that requirement with BLS. i'll explain
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10:39 < alex_leishman> if these n signatures were BLS signatures, the miner can create an aggregate signature, let's call this s'
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10:39 < alex_leishman> s' is an aggregate of all of the n individual signatures, but it is no larger than an individual signature
10:39 < sipa> but you can't validate that without doing pairing operations on the transactions?
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10:41 < alex_leishman> to validate s' you need to know the pubkey and message. With segwit, the message will no longer include the signature, right? so the signatures do not need to be known by a validator.
10:41 < alex_leishman> sorry. that was unclear
10:41 < sipa> signatures need to be known to a validator
10:41 < alex_leishman> to validate s' you need to know every pubkey and the message that was signed
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10:41 < alex_leishman> why?
10:41 < sipa> segwit just allows you to throw it away afterwards
10:41 < alex_leishman> yes, with the current sig scheme
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10:42 < alex_leishman> signatures need to be known
10:42 < sipa> ok
10:42 < alex_leishman> but with a single aggregate signature, you don't need to know any of the individual sigs
10:42 < alex_leishman> you only need to know the pubkeys and the message (m) signed
10:42 < sipa> yes but how much work is it to validate that aggregate signature?
10:42 < alex_leishman> s' is validated by computing n+1 pairings
10:42 < alex_leishman> one pairing
10:43 < sipa> that's an order of magnitude worse than what we have now
10:43 < alex_leishman> is compared to the product of n pairing
10:43 < alex_leishman> only if the pairings are not pre-computed
10:43 < sipa> yes, but signature checks are now also only done when they're not already preconputed
10:43 < sipa> the question is how expensive checks are if they are not preconputed
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10:44 < alex_leishman> it looks like about ~7x but i'm doing more research into that
10:44 < alex_leishman> but if they are precomputed, then the propagation times increase due to the data savings
10:45 < sipa> so does IBLT
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10:46 < sipa> BLS sounds awesome for various reasons, but unless you can do aggregation to actually reduce the actual uncached validation time, it is not a cpu improvement
10:46 < alex_leishman> how much blocksize reduction do we get with IBLT?
10:46 < sipa> nearly all of it
10:47 < sipa> just send the difference
10:47 < sipa> there are simpler relay schemes that already go a long way
10:48 < sipa> like the one used by BlueMatt's relay protocol
10:48 < alex_leishman> simpler than IBLT you mean?
10:48 < sipa> way simpler
10:48 < sipa> it just replaces transactiins with a backreference
10:49 < alex_leishman> ah ok interesting.
10:49 < sipa> with Schnorr you can do actual aggregation as long as it's about signing the same message
10:50 < alex_leishman> interesting. with BLS you can sign different messages and still do aggregation
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10:50 < sipa> but not both different messages and different public keys
10:50 < sipa> ?
10:50 < alex_leishman> both
10:50 < sipa> i do mean something else with aggregation i guess
10:50 < sipa> i mean something that is invisible to the verifier
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10:51 < alex_leishman> not sure what you're referring to?
10:51 < alex_leishman> let's say pairing speed was comparable to ecdsa verify. Then would you say the BLS scheme is superior?
10:52 < sipa> with schnorr, i can take multiple pubkey/signature pairs for a given message  and turn it into a single pubkey/message
10:52 < sipa> yes, it would be
10:52 < alex_leishman> ah ok yeah
10:52 < alex_leishman> yes i think so too
10:52 < alex_leishman> it's very simple
10:52 < sipa> but not due to cpu savings; just space savings and the fact that it's a unique signature
10:53 < alex_leishman> yeah. it would save a lot of space. no signatures ever need to be transmitted other than the aggregate sig
10:53 < alex_leishman> by the miner
10:54 < alex_leishman> i'm going to dig into current pairing implementations
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10:54 < alex_leishman> really the only downside of the BLS scheme is the selfish mining adversarial scenario
10:55 < alex_leishman> because outside of that, all pairings can be precalculated and validation speed would be comparable to current speeds
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10:55 < alex_leishman> another potential downside is compatibility with SPV wallets. but i haven't put much thought into that yet
10:55 < sipa> alex_leishman: now you're just saying that signature validation speed does not matter at all because it can be cached in non-adverserial situations
10:56 < sipa> alex_leishman: the reason we want to have it fast is so that adverserial situations don't have much benefit in the first place!
10:56 < alex_leishman> you're right. that's probably not correct.
10:56 < alex_leishman> but how fast is fast enough?
10:57 < sipa> i'd argue that it's already too slow now, but it's not the bottleneck anymore
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10:58 < alex_leishman> what is the bottleneck?
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11:22 < Greyboy> There has been a lot of recent speculation that Russia is going to use quantum computing to mine all the remaining BTC before difficulty can increase.   Can anyone comment on why this won't be possible at some point in the future?
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11:24 < instagibbs> Greyboy, #bitcoin. It's been talked about a trillion times online. Google is your friend. :)
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11:24 < Greyboy> Google is so impersonal, though
11:24 < instagibbs> But this is not "wizardly" because it has been beaten to death. #bitcoin is better for general chit chat
11:25 < Greyboy> what kind of things do wizards discuss?
11:25 < NewLiberty> bsm1175321: proof_of_location could be more valuable but needs some work for it to also serve as proof_of_alibi.  Missing is identity, image data or something.
11:25 < instagibbs> people read the logs, and will not want to read about the 1000th quantum speculation thread, in other words
11:25 < Greyboy> Oh, I didn't know you catered your topics around who reads your logs, my bad.
11:26 < instagibbs> no problem
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11:28 < Greyboy> instagibbs, again my apologies, no disrespect meant.  since im new here, can you tell me what is normally discussed?
11:28 < instagibbs> Oh for that I read the scrollback :)
11:28 < arubi> (and the topic)
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11:30 < instagibbs> arubi, to be fair, quantum computers is theoretical... just beaten to death
11:30 < instagibbs> are*
11:31 < arubi> I was referring to the "This channel is logged." part :)
11:31 < Greyboy> theoritically speaking, of course, what coins have difficulty that adjust after every block?
11:32 < arubi> though yea, even then, if you're already using bitcoin correctly, you're perfectly fine (assuming a soft fork for QC resistant scripts is introduced)
11:32 < instagibbs> lamport sigs
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11:34 < arubi> yea, they're big but they're good in a post quantum world :)  (and easy to code too!)
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11:35 < bsm1175321> NewLiberty: alibi is an interesting use case.  *what* you upload is up to you, whether a key or image of yourself.  Proof of identity or proof of not-photoshopped are not cryptographically solvable, so out of scope.
11:36 < bsm1175321> I'm surprised there wasn't more response to that, I thought it was a darn cool idea.  ;-)
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11:38 < arubi> bsm117532, when I read it, I sort of immediately though it could be gamed so I was waiting for others' comments.  Maybe I need to read it again, maybe it's not so gameable (unless trust is given to location services)
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11:40 < arubi> 'location' means any or all of the set of possible inputs about a prover's location
11:40 < NewLiberty> bsm1175321 The LEOs already do this with less reliable methods https://theintercept.com/surveillance-catalogue/ and increasingly so.  The location services are a sort of oracle for them already, but it is used in investigations routinely.  The data ends up in some court cases.
11:45 < bsm1175321> Trust is isolated to calibrating satellite orbits AFAICT.  In principle you can do it yourself, and in principle it can be extracted from intra-satellite ping times if your network is large enough, though I suspect error will accumulate over time.
11:46 < bsm1175321> Really it's the same in bitcoin.  If you want to use bitcoin as a timestamping server, someone somewhere still has to reference an atomic clock or UTC.
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11:47 < bsm1175321> One could collect lots of independent evaluations of the block time to mitigate that.
11:47 < arubi> not really though, the rules are about a maximum time diff from each person's clock. if a large enough group sets their clock differently, they would just fork
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11:47 < bsm1175321> arubi: I'm saying if you want sub-2h timing.
11:47 < arubi> ah, okay
11:48 < bsm1175321> And saying explicitly I'm not trusting the block time that the miner publishes.
11:48 < arubi> sure, but you can certainly trust it's height, which is very much like timestamping
11:49 < arubi> what happened before, then this block, then whatever happens after
11:49 < bsm1175321> Yes.  In my satellite network proposal, you have a DAG with space- and time-ordered links.  This graph is the analog of "height" and is independent of any evaluation of time or location.
11:49 < arubi> I do need to reread it then.  care to share the link again bsm117532 ?
11:50 < bsm1175321> http://blog.sldx.com/
11:50 < arubi> thanks.  I'll get to it a bit later (hehe) today
11:50 < bsm1175321> Click on the "Braid" link there too, might provide some context for the DAG.
11:50 < arubi> will do, thanks.
11:54 < bsm1175321> Minor clarification: I'm assuming four hashes (P,Q,R,S) are *simultaneously* received from the satellites. This defines a point on Earth.
11:54  * bsm1175321 discovers the "edit" button.
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16:00 < kanzure> fairexchange bitcoin mixing protocol implementation https://github.com/hudon/refraction
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16:00 < kanzure> based on http://elaineshi.com/docs/bitcoin.pdf
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16:23 < JackH> how do you keep digging this stuff up, heh
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16:36 < bramc> My methods are freaking voluminous
16:37 < nsh> but is there a madness in them?
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16:42 < instagibbs> JackH, he's our resident AI
16:42 < JackH> question is if he is running on a private or public blockchain
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19:39 < Logicwax> hrmm that BLS conversation is interesting
19:39 < Logicwax> first ive heard of that
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015