--- Log opened Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015 00:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07 -!- smellymoo_ [76453f35@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.69.63.53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 < smellymoo_> you guys are going to love this! I have just got the first public draft of my whitepaper to make a dynamic (web2.0) peer-to-peer world-wide-web :D 00:07 < smellymoo_> https://github.com/smellymoo/Interpeer/blob/master/whitepaper.md 00:10 -!- smellymoo_ [76453f35@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.69.63.53] has quit [Client Quit] 00:10 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:12 -!- ManfredMacx [~hyperion@93-139-117-126.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 00:26 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- p15_ 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[~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:37 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:55 < AaronvanW> re: input back-links 04:55 < AaronvanW> I thought SPV nodes already did (something like) this. So I'm either not understanding the concept or I'm not understanding how SPV nodes currently work. Maybe ping me if you see this message? 05:01 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:05 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:08 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:11 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:18 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:19 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:22 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:28 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:28 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has 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ZZZzzz…] 11:16 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-252-19.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:25 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:25 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42 < pistdov> This is wat satoshi envisioned for bitcoin, this picture represents "balance" and the notion of "by the people and for the people": https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrxyUeUCUAASNcy.jpg 11:43 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:43 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 < kanzure> that's off-topic. 11:58 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 12:09 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:12 -!- pozitron [~nu@162.216.46.67] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:12 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:ddf2:dd09:b55c:2b53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:33 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@98.212.187.224] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@98.212.187.224] has quit [Changing host] 12:33 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:39 < pistdov> wikileaks just released a new dump; sha256, and ecdsa were cracked yesterday; wil this have any impact on bitcoin? 12:39 -!- pistdov [~pistdov@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/pistdov] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"] 12:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:44 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:44 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:45 -!- libertalis [~libertali@c-73-207-38-154.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:58 -!- justice_ [~textual@HSI-KBW-46-223-37-131.hsi.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:35 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 < Stamehad> Adlai 13:37 -!- Stamehad [~anonymous@213.57.67.123] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 13:38 -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@178-157-152.dynamic.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@178-157-152.dynamic.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- bitcoin-wizards6 [ceacad48@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.172.173.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- bitcoin-wizards6 [ceacad48@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.172.173.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56 -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 14:02 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 18:03 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-125-203.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 18:04 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:04 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:14 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kgpzmbtjufnbzqaq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:16 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:212:1ea2::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:22 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:24 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:26 -!- btcdrak [uid115429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gutzygalpypzlzmu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:27 -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-103.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30 -!- SgtStroopwafel [~Chuck@s5597aba6.adsl.online.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 18:35 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37 < AdrianG> sha256 cracked? 18:37 < AdrianG> wat 18:40 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- gnnr [~gnnr@199.19.94.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:47 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:47 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:48 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51 < kanzure> when evaluating reasoning, fallacies are a proof of failure of independent verification. 18:51 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:52 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:55 -!- c0rw|zZz [~c0rw1n@151.177-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56 -!- tachys [~alex@c-50-131-227-138.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:02 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:09 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@108.74.246.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:09 < CodeShark> given that cracking sha256 and cracking ecdsa would probably require very different techniques it would be very strange for both to be cracked the same day...and if such a thing happened, the impact on bitcoin would be the least of our worries :) 19:10 < CodeShark> ecdsa will likely be cracked at some point eventually, though 19:12 < CodeShark> all crypto based on representations of cyclic groups in which computing the log is hard will probably succumb to quantum crypto 19:12 < CodeShark> err, quantum computers 19:14 < AdrianG> just a matter of time. 19:19 < sipa> or not 19:20 < AdrianG> sipa: you dont think ecdsa will eventually be broken by QC? 19:21 < CodeShark> will ECDSA be broken by QC? (1/sqrt[2]) (|yes> + |no>) 19:22 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:24 < sipa> AdrianG: if general QC is able to scale up to the number of qubits needed to implement EC group operations, it will certainly break it (and by break, i mean reduce to polynomial time attack complexity), if it doesn't, it doesn't 19:24 < CodeShark> it depends on which branch of the multiverse you ultimately find yourself in ;) 19:25 < sipa> at this point i don't think it's established that such a QC is even physically possible 19:25 < AdrianG> sipa: theoretical physics foundation or engineering possibility? 19:25 < CodeShark> it's a tough problem...but I think with error correction and good engineering, barring any serious problems with quantum mechanics it seems very plausible 19:26 < CodeShark> perhaps the constraint here is thermodynamic 19:26 < CodeShark> inherently thermodynamic 19:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 < CodeShark> barring any serious issues with the theory, that is 19:27 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28 < AdrianG> https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-mathematical-trick-that-helped-smash-the-record-for-the-largest-number-ever-factorised-by-a-77fde88499#.hz2cmri5a 19:28 < AdrianG> i dont think we have any explicit theoretical limitations on scaling. 19:30 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:30 -!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-45-209.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31 < CodeShark> that article is interesting...but I think the more fundamental problem is period finding...factorization is reduced to period finding, but period finding is what we're ultimately after. the factorization tricks are interesting but only seem to lead to special cases of weak choices of prime pairs 19:31 < AdrianG> CodeShark: sure, its a bunch of tricks + 4 quibts. 19:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 19:33 < CodeShark> so 4 qubits is the current NMR record, eh? 19:34 < CodeShark> NMR seemed promising largely because the equipment required to perform such computations already exists 19:34 < AdrianG> and now we have 2 qubit gates in silicon 19:34 < maaku> NV diamond qubits can get you basically any size entangled state ... if you had atomic precision over manufacturing 19:34 < CodeShark> but NMR seems to be very limited in scalability 19:35 < AdrianG> we know how to scale silicon. 19:35 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-139-55-215-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:37 < AdrianG> "Remember that quantum computers have obsessed internet weirdos for as long as the concept has existed." 19:37 < AdrianG> lol 19:39 < sipa> obligatory xkcd 465 19:39 -!- Jeremy_Rand_2 [~user@ip68-97-45-209.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:44 < CodeShark> the three most confusing pieces of nomenclature in the scientific literature of the last couple decades: "quantum teleportation", "genetic cloning", "bitcoin address" 19:51 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:51 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58 -!- phantomcircuit [~phantomci@strateman.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:18 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:19 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@c-98-212-187-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:19 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:22 < bsm117532> "quantum teleportation" is an outright misappropriation of the term, to grab headlines. :-( Scientists should be more honest and less sensationalist. 20:23 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:26 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:35 -!- el33th4x0r [68e5aa14@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.104.229.170.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:47 < justanotheruser> bsm117532: s/scientists/journalists/ 20:58 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:1ca3:53fe:f2bb:8001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:02 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:07 -!- Monthrect is now known as Piper-Off 21:18 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 21:33 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:f823:7965:aaca:8589] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:54 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:59 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:01 -!- digitalmagus8 [~digitalma@unaffiliated/digitalmagus] has quit [] 22:04 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:15 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_] 22:16 -!- zookolaptop [~user@2601:281:8001:26aa:f823:7965:aaca:8589] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:31 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:38 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:43 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:50 -!- smk [59f8ab85@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.248.171.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:53 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:01 -!- desantis [~desantis@50.153.216.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:03 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-141-42.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:03 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:07 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@124x36x254x113.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:08 < adam3us> so with seg-witness the effective block size EBS, witness size WS and block size BS there is an accounting rule that EBS=BS+0.25*WS<1MB this is to encourage space efficient use of both BS and WS. the penalty for inefficient WS use is "artificial" loss of access to some of BS. 23:08 < adam3us> for example if WS=1MB, then BS=750kB and EBS=1.75MB 23:10 < adam3us> where if one was inefficient for some reason used without added functionality WS=2MB then BS=500kB and EBS=1MB penalty of 250kB of BS vs former case 23:13 < adam3us> for selecting transactions it must also be reasonably simple to sort transactions in fee order. for this you calculate fee per EBS kB 23:14 < adam3us> question: is there an alternate sorting rule that incentivises efficient BS & WS use that gives access to BS==1MB while still being a simple sorting function for fee per EBS kB? 23:16 < maaku> i worry we are getting too deep in the weeds in analysis of the BS+0.25*WS metric when jonas' metric provides a better starting point 23:26 < aj> adam3us: i thought "effective" BS was BS+WS, and "virtual" BS was BS+0.25*WS fwiw 23:27 < adam3us> replace EBS with VBS probably yes that was used in sipa presentation 23:27 < adam3us> though it's not so virtual - they are bytes sent over the wire. 23:28 < aj> adam3us: and ttbomk the only way to keep fee calculations "simple" is by having BS+k*WS < l for some k,l 23:28 < adam3us> oh doh. yes you are right! 23:28 < adam3us> maaku: does jonas metric become multi-dimensional? 23:28 < maaku> no 23:29 < maaku> it's a linear function 23:29 < maaku> like sipa's but it includes more terms 23:29 < adam3us> maaku: ok i guess right there is VBS=f(BS,WS,sigops, …) 23:30 < aj> adam3us: call it "block validation cost" at that point, i think? 23:30 < maaku> aj: 'validation cost metric' is the name of the talk ;) 23:31 < adam3us> so how will this function be used. calc function for each tx, sort, fill up block. but how is VBS calculated in this case? 23:31 < aj> maaku: ahhhh, /now/ i remember that talk 23:32 < aj> adam3us: as long as f() is a linear combination of factors, f(BLOCK) = sum f(tx) 23:32 < aj> adam3us: so just keep adding tx's by fee/cost-metric until you hit the limit 23:34 < adam3us> aj: right but how does that penalise inefficient use of metrics if it is not consensus enforceable 23:34 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0bd8.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34 < aj> adam3us: oh, i thought the idea was this was what consensus should be enforcing 23:34 < adam3us> aj: VBS < 1MB is enforced 23:34 < maaku> adam3us: it is consensus enforceable... 23:35 < maaku> adam3us: no, the idea is to get rid of this block size stuff entirely 23:35 < aj> adam3us: ie, hard fork to use this formulation rather than separate limits for blocksize and sigops 23:35 < maaku> you fill based on cost metric until either VBS>1MB or cost metric limit is hit 23:35 < maaku> when hard fork eventually happens, drop the VBS>1MB limit 23:35 < adam3us> oh ok. sorry i was focussing on the application of cost metrics to seg-witness in a soft-fork setting 23:36 < maaku> even in a soft fork setting it is still true 23:36 < aj> adam3us: (gmaxwell suggested the other day that you could set things up so that there was an initial hard fork, but then readjusting the parameters every two-years (eg) could be done by soft-fork) 23:36 < adam3us> you can fill it but not enforce it? 23:36 < maaku> because the coefficients are set such that you can never hit VBS>1MB while being under metric 23:36 < adam3us> maaku: ok that was the magic info i was looking for. 23:36 < adam3us> so it is completely analogous 23:37 < adam3us> it is axiomatic that if sum f(tx) < cost-limit then BS < 1MB 23:41 < adam3us> so to generalise it whichever function is used the question becomes is there an alternate penalty mechanism that allows BS==1MB rather than BS < 1MB 23:44 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:1ca3:53fe:f2bb:8001] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:48 < adam3us> flexcap things seem possible pay to future miner or higher difficulty (for bloated VBS) 23:49 -!- memymo [~textual@c-24-4-69-49.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51 -!- smk [59f8ab85@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.248.171.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56 -!- desantis [~desantis@50.153.216.131] has quit [Quit: desantis] --- Log closed Sun Dec 20 00:00:42 2015