--- Log opened Sun Dec 27 00:00:48 2015
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03:20 < adlai> "censorship resistant bandwidth" is trivial to measure, 144*10e6
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08:31 < simbit> How did luke-jr calculated 50 years in here?  https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ydwg2/warning_abnormally_high_number_of_blocks/
08:40 < alpalp> That calculation does seem a bit high
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09:14 < Luke-Jr> simbit: I read the comment in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1924
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09:19 < fluffypony> blame says that's gavinandresen's calculation, simbit
09:19 < fluffypony> so check with him
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09:23 < simbit> Can anyone see a problem there?
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09:48 < jl2012> Should be 43.8 years: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%284+%2F+%2824+*+365%29%29+%2F+%28poisson+distribution%2824%29%3E%3D48%29
09:49 < jl2012> we just had 12 blocks in last hour again
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11:38  * adlai doesn't get why there's a panic over the mere fact of hashrate rising... this just dilutes panics over actual risks
11:38 < adlai> and yes, implementing an alert in a client = asking for fire in a crowded theatre
11:38 < kanzure> an alert message isn't to induce panic, it's a notification.
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11:39 < adlai> i guess it's less panic-inducing if it comes with all the math
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11:45 < alpalp> jl2012: that is not correct since every 4 hour period starts with every block, not every 4 hours.
11:45 < alpalp> so it's actually a lot more likely than 43.8 hours
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11:50 < alpalp> For example, you could flip coins (1 per second) for eternity, the odds of getting 100 heads in a row isn't based on taking the number of 100-flip groups, but every flip is the potential start of a 100 flip sequence of heads.
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14:23 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i seem to remember the calculation in the comment being wrong but cannot remember why
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14:34 < alpalp> the math is off by a factor of 48
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16:14 < tulip> bramc: the bitnodes site isn't something you should be relying on as it doesn't state its data collection shortcomings. it finds sockets it can handshake with which is trivially warped without running anything that slightly resembles a Bitcoin Node. it also counts IPv6 and IPv4 as distinct nodes where there's a good chance that every one of them are dual stack.
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16:15 < bramc> tulip, Got any better source of data on full nodes? I'm not 'relying' on that data, except to the extent that the entire bitcoin ecosystem is relying on there being full nodes.
16:16 < tulip> calling nodes with listening sockets "full nodes" isn't really fair either. "full node" just means fully validating it has nothing to do with the public P2P network.
16:16 < sipa> it also fails to take into account that nodes may not be economically relevant
16:16 < sipa> someone can run 100 full nodes on AWS and not use them for anything
16:17 < sipa> which means those nodes don't exert any power on incentivizing miners to validate the rules
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16:18 < tulip> bramc: on some shallow level the only full node that matters is your own.
16:18 < jcorgan> also the obvious point that it is "reachable" nodes; this doesn't count full nodes behind NAT nor Tor
16:20 < sipa> tulip: and only if you don't run one yourself, it matters how many indepedant (and hopefully mutually distrusting) parties besides you use one (note: use, not run)
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16:22 < bramc> tulip, For SPV clients a healthy ecosystem matters a lot
16:22 < tulip> bramc: SPV is orthogonal to the P2P network. Electrum for example doesn't touch it at all.
16:23 < tulip> BIP37 bloom filtering SPV does use the P2P network which was almost certainly a mistake.
16:25 < sipa> bramc: there are 2 things full nodes provide: 1) direct services to the network (like relay transactions and blocks)  2) the ability for the owner to get a guaranteed-correct view of transactions on the network so he can base his economic activity on it (which is what indirectly keeps miners from producing invalid blocks)
16:26 < bramc> bloom filtering spv does indeed seem to be a bad idea. It should be PIR or nothing at all, not half-assed bullshit.
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16:27 < bramc> sipa, The danger is that the big miners will start going direct to each other and just ignore everybody else completely
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16:27 < tulip> miners can produce whatever they want, that's meaningless if nobody accepts the blocks.
16:28 < tulip> if services were being silly and using SPV validation that would be a serious problem though.
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16:39 < bramc> About weak blocks: There seems to be two ways to think about transactions, either they dribble in slowly, the 'current world', or there's always several blocks's worth of transactions already sitting around, 'bram world'
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16:41 < bramc> These are very, very different scenario's. In current world gmaxwell's plan of having each weak block reference an earlier weak block with a list of new transactions to add makes perfect sense. You add them as they come, and get all of them (well, one weak block behind, but despite the added latency you do get all of them)
16:47 < adlai> tulip: miners shouldn't produce whatever they want, it'it'd be unfortunate if only they and exchanges cared about their own blocks, and suddenly all the bitcoin users were left waiting for godot^H^H^Heligius to producea block once a month, until we had a reaudjustment
16:47 < bramc> In bram world this approach works but it looks fairly goofy. The very first weak block will fill the entire available space, and later ones will have nothing to add
16:47  * adlai files this under "how bitcoin fails"
16:49 < bramc> adlai, All manner of failure modes show up once mining rewards get low enough
16:50  * adlai files this under "how bitcoin fails"
16:50 < sipa> let's switch to freicoin
16:50  * adlai files this under "how IRC clients fail"
16:51 < bramc> We're trying to head them off at the pass by making latency not such a huge issue, but that doesn't stop all potential failures
16:52 < adlai> let's shill fungibility incentivization because that solves a problem that bitcoin sucks at, as opposud to network effects
16:54 < bramc> Anyhow, back on the actual reducing of latency: To make behavior not insane in bram world, you want to solve two problems (1) the  first weak block doesn't contain anything (especially bad when transaction fees are all you have), and (2) there's no way for new transactions to squeeze their way in mid-block
16:55 < bramc> Both of these have reasonably straightforward solutions: For (1) you make it so that each weak block contains two weak pointers, one being new transactions to include in this block, and the other being a whole new block's worth of transactions to start the next block off with if this one is successful
16:55 < bramc> That one is a little goofy in current world, because it does literally nothing for the time being. Maybe it's better to wait on proposing it seriously.
16:57 < bramc> For (2) you can make it so weak blocks can both add and remove transactions from previous weak blocks. This also is a little silly in the current world, because it will also literally do nothing. It will start doing something sooner than that other extension though.
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16:58  * adlai nods
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17:04 < bramc> Anyhow, those are both serious suggestions I'd like to throw on the pile.
17:06 < alpalp> bramc: what is the point of a weak block if you can remove midstream?
17:06 < sipa> midstream?
17:06 < bramc> alpalp, Weak blocks are just a form of compression to help reduce latency
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17:40 < bitcoin-wizards3> alpalp: have you seen the "Subchains" paper by Peter R?  I don't know about his claim re 0-conf
17:40 < bitcoin-wizards3> But he has lots of nice diagrams to help understand
17:40 < bitcoin-wizards3> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/subchains.pdf
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17:41 < bitcoin-wizards3> Animations of weak blocks and subchains:
17:41 < bitcoin-wizards3> https://bitco.in/forum/threads/subchains-and-other-applications-of-weak-blocks.584/#post-7246
17:43 < adlai> ok PeteR
17:43  * adlai takes a look
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17:45 < bramc> bitcoin-wizards3, Trying to add security to 0conf with weak blocks is mostly fallacious. They're an 'improvement' in the security of 0conf, but multiplying epsilon by something is still epsilon. What weak blocks *are* very useful for is removing the disincentive for including transactions in one's blocks. Peter R's thesis relies on that disincentive as an axiom. It happens to be wrong.
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17:49 < bitcoin-wizards3> He quantifies how subchains will reduce orphaning risk too, as well as divert fee revenue to hash power.
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17:49 < bitcoin-wizards3> 0-conf security would be cool but i'm still skeptical
17:50  * adlai hands out /nick and /shill tags
17:50 < bramc> The essential trick to weak blocks is that a 'successful' weak block can be relied on to have been propagated, so you can make your block say 'I include everything in that weak block over there' without incurring any latency hit above making a no-transaction block whatsoever
17:51 < bitcoin-wizards3> agreed
17:52 < bramc> That property of them is clearly extremely useful. Everything else I find dubious.
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17:57 < phantomcircuit> bitcoin-wizards3, once again he has produced lovely pictures to explain something and completely and totally missed that it doesn't do what he thinks
17:58 < alpalp> but those pictures sure are pretty.
17:58 < phantomcircuit> bitcoin-wizards3, the funny thing is that there are actually proposals which enable instant transactions
17:59 < phantomcircuit> the two of two scheme greenaddress.it uses which already exists is you trusting them not to help someone double spend
17:59 < phantomcircuit> the scheme bidirectional payment channels (such as lightning would use) enable instant transactions through game theory
17:59 < bitcoin-wizards3> yeah agreed
18:00 < adlai> honest question here, and i hope it counts as signal: how do you react when somebody says something obviously revealing of simply not understanding any of the issues behind Bitcoin-with-a-capital-B (specifically, "i wanna run XT because i hate small blocks and lightning network")
18:00 < phantomcircuit> i've not heard any other proposal which even sounded plausible
18:00 < adlai> better rephrased, how do you respond that's not just dumping on them a pile of links
18:00 < phantomcircuit> adlai, "ok but call it xtcoin"
18:00 < adlai> that's too low SNR :)
18:01 < adlai> especially since most redditors have developed a very good "altcoin filter"
18:01 < adlai> (but not good enough)
18:01 < alpalp> adlai: I think you have to figure out what their understanding is - so if it's someone with honest intent, asking questions gets a lot further.  Find commonality, then go from there.
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18:01 < adlai> so, i guess the first question is just, "why"?
18:01 < phantomcircuit> adlai, well yes xt is literally an altcoin
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18:02 < adlai> it doesn't help to say that when you're trying to find common language.those terms has been defined, for better or worse
18:03 < Cobra_> someone should make a video about the risks of XT
18:03 < TD-Linux> adlai, I recommend not responding to trolls on reddit
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18:25 < jcorgan> agree; responding to them with your limited time and energy only lends them credence and lowers your own
18:29 < adlai> it's not on reddit, although my first response (of "you appear to have been spending too much time on reddit") was not met with disagreement
18:29 < adlai> (OP is a very well-known redditor)
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18:53 < TD-Linux> adlai, I think sending links is fine, and in fact many people much prefer a link rather than an unsourced argument.
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21:25 < adlai> well mark me down as amused if the "hearn-gavin scamcoin" doesn't at least give the peanut gallery a run for its money
21:25 < adlai> if there ever was an idea worth shorting... this is it. but i'd sell tickets if i could
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22:17 < bramc> Hearn seems to have dumped XT entirely, or at least is spending no time on it. Gavin it's less clear.
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22:22 < monkey> So which altcoin is is more ridiculous: XT of Bitcoin Unlimited?
22:25 < TD-Linux> that's more #bitcoin material
22:29 < jcorgan> yes, please, let's keep wizards on topic
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22:55 < jl2012> alpalp: you are wrong (for block frequency). Assuming constant hashrate, the distribution of number of blocks in 12am-1am, and in 1am-2am are independent. However, the distribution of number of blocks in  in 12am-1am and in 12:30am-1:30am are not independent.
22:57 < jl2012> in a given 4-hour interval, the probability to have at least 48 blocks is 0.0000104284
22:58 < jl2012> No matter it happens in this 4-hour interval, the probability is the same in the next 4-hour
22:59 < jl2012> However, if you allow the 2 intervals to overlap, the probability of the later interval will be dependent on the observation of the earlier interval
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23:01 < jl2012> Since the probability is 0.0000104284 for a given 4-hour interval, we expect to see such event once in 4/0.0000104284 hours = 43.8 years
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23:41 < Taek> I thought of a scheme that allows node operators (but not miners!) to accept blocks at a size limit of their choosing without damaging security
23:41 < Taek> but it does damage (pretty severely) fungibility
23:41 < adlai> how?
23:42 < Taek> The idea is that you keep the utxo set for all transactions that appear in the first X bytes of a block, where X is the custom limit you've set
23:42 < Taek> then, when accepting transactions, you only consider the transactions that come from the utxo set you recognize as valid
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23:43 < Taek> miners will not include transactions that are double spends, or if they do you don't care because you don't recognize the tx as valid (it's below the byte limit you've set for yourself)
23:43 < Taek> the damage to fungibility is that once an output has been spent below a certain byte value, the coins spawned from that output will no longer be accepted by the nodes that don't read blocks that large
23:45 < adlai> sounds like a great way to force people to defungiblize in order to not lose a fork-bet... or just pretend the whole thing doesn't exist
23:45 < Taek> When spending, you need to make sure that your transactions appear in a part of the block that you recognize
23:45 < Taek> so you'd need an OP_KBLIMIT or something, to make sure that your transaction is invalid unless it appears in the top half of the block
23:45 < adlai> bitcoin_toinfinityandbeyond
23:46 < Taek> yeah well the loss of fungibility is not an insignificant tradeoff. Also, it doesn't help miners, who still need a way to know if they are mining a double spend
23:46 < Taek> it works for full nodes because they don't have to look at a bunch of new transactions and figure out which ones will be acceptable to miners with deeper blocks
23:47 < Taek> so, as far as I've figured out, miners would still need to validate the whole chain, which means the miner centralization problem is just as significant
23:48 < adlai> it works for miners too, they just continue SPV...
23:49  * adlai still maintains that it's downright naive to believe miners do anything but, until they are incentivized to (anonymously!) create short-lived reorgs
23:50 < adlai> but at least i wouldn't sign any alerts over it. i think irc panic is less correlated with market idiocy than DANGER WILL ROBINSON
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--- Log closed Mon Dec 28 00:00:49 2015