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05:29 < CiPi> This channel is logged.
05:29 < CiPi> Goat damn it...NSA
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06:42 < null_radix> does anyone know of a hierarchical deterministic key scheme that allow for a way to verify that public keys were generated from a root key. Given that the verifier only know the root public key?
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06:54 < MRL-Relay> [shen] null_radix - maybe something like (x_n, P_n) then G_{n+1} = hash(P_n), (x_{n+1}, P_{n+1}) = (x_n , x_n G_{n+1}), and at each step provide a signature w'r't new basepoint (haven't thought this through)
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07:23 < bsm117532> The minimum difficulty target for a Braid is set by the existence of graph cuts (beads/blocks with no siblings). You need a span between two graph cuts to allocate coins.  So the number of graph cuts should be the same as the high-difficulty (bitcoin) target difficulty.  This is controlled by a quantity (network size)/(minimum difficulty) where the network size is measured in seconds.
07:25 < bsm117532> network size = mean time to get a bead to all nodes.
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08:26 < Taek> I don't know if this will go anywhere, but I like the idea of transaction-enforced preconsensus
08:26 < Taek> basically, you have some method for arriving at preconsensus related to weak blocks, which allows the network to basically agree in advance what stuff should look like
08:27 < Taek> then you have transactions commit to that, meaning a miner that deviates will have to lose the fees on all potential transactions
08:27 < Taek> so the miners have a tangible financial incentive to stick to the preconsensus
08:28 < Taek> but also a DoS vector where they can invalidate a whole set of transactions just by not following preconsensus
08:28 < Taek> though that's not to bad, it's easy enough for the full nodes to remake and resubmit the transactions
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08:40 < Taek> <PeterR> Jannes: using estimates for average network latency and propagation impedance from G. Andrew Stone's recent paper, orphan rate would be ~20% with 8 MB blocks.
08:41 < Taek> 20% is completely unviable for small miners
08:41 < Taek> a miner with 20% of the hashpower is going to have an orphan rate of 16%, compared to an orphan rate of 20% for the small miners
08:43 < bsm117532> Consensus is consensus.  It seems wrong to me to have almost-consensus, pre-consensus, and other concepts.  It seems pretty similar to the discussion on Ethereum's Casper: they require consensus on bonded validators in order to have consensus on blocks. This should all be reducible to a single sense of "consensus" without dividing it into pieces.
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08:44 < Taek> preconsensus allows you to have softer assumptions, meaning you can have more powerful protocols
08:45 < Taek> for example, you can have conflicting transactions in preconsensus
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08:45 < bsm117532> Apropos: https://twitter.com/yaoeo/status/685098031927136257
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08:46 < bsm117532> Taek: Then you don't have consensus at all, so I'm confused what the point is.
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08:53 < bsm117532> Taek: It seems to me that weak blocks are not about consensus, but about keeping mempools synchronized and optimizing block propagation.
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08:55 < Taek> keeping mempools synchronized is preconsensus
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08:57 < stevenroose> hi, what is the state of Maxwell's POLYSIG multisig scheme? Has anyone been working on an implementation?"
08:57 < bsm117532> Aren't you worried that a double-spender could use that mechanism to select which of his two double-spends gets committed?
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09:17 < Taek> bsm117532: that's why you don't rely on preconsensus for confirmation of a transaction's validity. It's okay if a double-spender can manipulate the preconsensus because nobody should be expecting things to be resolved
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09:19 < Taek> so, you have weak blocks that commit to the most recent large block. You use these weak blocks to build a 'strong' mempool that decides what transactions (according to an unenforced preconsensus) are eligable for the next block, and then you have a canonical way to pick between the eligable transactions, and a canonical ordering, which means you can predict the merkle root knowing only the set of weak blocks
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09:20 < bsm117532> I'm leaning stronger and stronger to the opinion that we should remove free p2p relay of transactions.  All this complication comes from managing that. If everything were mined, we have a just a single data structure to manage, rather than all these layers.
09:20 < Taek> furthermore, you only select weak blocks that commit to strong blocks with 2 confirmations, meaning someone adding new weak blocks to that set is sacrificing mining dollars
09:20 < Taek> assuming that everyone has seen all the weak blocks, everyone knows the ordained merkle root of the next block
09:21 < Taek> and any manipulations would be expensive
09:21 < Taek> that allows new transactions to commit to the preconsensus, stating that they and their fees aren't valid unless there is a block following the preconsensus
09:22 < Taek> which incentivizes people to follow the preconsensus
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09:23 < Taek> =/ it's too convoluted
09:23 < Taek> also, if a miner breaks preconsensus, the transaction submitters are likely to just rebuild and resubmit, meaning the miners aren't actually losing out on those fees
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09:23 < bsm117532> It's convoluted. :-/
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09:32 < MRL-Relay> [shen] stevenroose: Do you have a link to the polysig thing? I hadn't heard of it, but I included a multisig description based on the MG sigs in recent drafts of the ring ct stuff and am wondering if it's similar based on what I could find from here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/search/?q=polysig
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09:54 < CiPi> hello lizards
09:54 < CiPi> I mean, wizards
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10:18 < Taek> shen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE - it's like 40 minutes in or something
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10:18 < MRL-Relay> [shen] Taek thx, will watch
10:19 < Taek> related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQLWeFmpYg
10:19 < kanzure> .title
10:19 < yoleaux> SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: Key Tree Signatures - YouTube
10:19 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE
10:19 < yoleaux> SF Bitcoin Devs Seminar: A Deep Dive with Bitcoin Core Developer Greg Maxwell - YouTube
10:20 < stevenroose> MRL-Relay: here he describes several multisig schemes, one of them being POLYSIG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYQ-3VvNCHE&feature=youtu.be&t=1313
10:20 < kanzure> hm i don't have that one typed.
10:20 < kanzure> oh yes i do
10:21 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/
10:21 < kanzure> you linked to the other youtube video version of that.
10:21 < kanzure> i was expecting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9lJTRZCDc
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10:21 < MRL-Relay> [shen] stevenroose, thx
10:22 < stevenroose> POLYSIG is just the term he coined in that talk, it might be called differently by now
10:22 < stevenroose> it just seemed like the better alternative and its weird that almost a year has passed without hearing from it again
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10:27 < MRL-Relay> [shen] stevenroose, ah found it, that's interesting, but definitely different than the one I wrote up, which, if you are interested is in sec 4.4 here: https://www.overleaf.com/read/qzgytbyyxvyf
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10:39 < kanzure> win 97
10:39 < kanzure> ... oops.
10:39 < merlincorey> kanzure: windows 95 or windows 98 buddy
10:40 < merlincorey> kanzure: no win 97 :P
10:40  * merlincorey sees himself out now, following bad joke
10:40 < arubi> irc channels are the best wordlists :)
10:41 < stevenroose> MRL-Relay: t of m of n?
10:41 < MRL-Relay> [shen] yeah so t of m is the multisig part, and then the multisiggers are hidden in m of n
10:41 < stevenroose> what's n if t is the threshold and m the participants?
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10:41 < stevenroose> ah
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12:58 < jannes> Taek: thx, I guess I missed PeterR. Googling for that paper leads me to BU and gives me headaches. I'll take your word for it. 20% sounds absolutely killing for decentralization.
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13:29 < bitcoin-wizards5> Jannes: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/downloads/subchains.pdf
13:30 < bitcoin-wizards5> Section 6
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13:33 < brg444> heh
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15:11 < kanzure> "Merkle-Damgard revisited: how to construct a hash function" https://www.cs.nyu.edu/~puniya/papers/merkle.pdf
15:19 < kanzure> "Open problems in hash function security" https://securewww.esat.kuleuven.be/cosic/publications/article-2547.pdf
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20:59 < AdrianG> why are ring-signature schemes with random oracles not secure in practise ?
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--- Log closed Fri Jan 08 00:00:59 2016