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07:26 < r0ach> Luke-Jr: do you think the block size problems you speak of are actually network propagation problems when someone can easily make the argument that they're in essence all just block withholding attack problems inherent to PoW
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07:30 < kanzure> bandwidth asymmetry problems would exist independent of whether it was using Proof-of-Work or proof-of-some-other-stuff.
07:34 < r0ach> I just believe it all falls under the category of block withholding attacks since security is designed for worst case scenario and that condition can be initiated by anyone regardless of how fast or slow their bandwidth is
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07:43 < aj> r0ach: isn't it backwards? "network propogation" usually looks at how it harms the person whose block is delayed (it gets orphaned/dies childless), while block withholding looks at how it benefits the originator of the delayed block (it leads to others' blocks being orphaned/dying childless)
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07:50 < kanzure> aj: and "network propagation" also means propagation of any data at all, not just new/recent blocks.
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08:21 < psztorc> It seems the blocksize limit will soon increase to 2 MB, after all.
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08:24 < dEBRUYNE> psztorc: link?
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08:25 < PeterR> psztorc: yes, I suspect miners will increase their generation limits (up to 2 MB) soon.
08:25 < psztorc> It was a telephone call, actually.
08:25 < psztorc> ( You guys, and your "links". )
08:26 < psztorc> Nevertheless: https://bitcoinclassic.com/
08:26  * nsh frowns
08:26 < nsh> > the blocksize limit will soon increase to 2 MB
08:26 < nsh> > We are hard forking bitcoin to a 2 MB blocksize limit. Please join us.
08:27 < nsh> not the same thing.
08:27 < psztorc> 40% of hashing power already committed, as well as the larger exchanges.
08:27 < nsh> also this is far past the point of being unproductive and tedious by now
08:27 < psztorc> I have it on good authority that Chinese miners will agree to join the 40%, putting the total well over 50%.
08:28 < nsh> unless you have any theoretical reflections, i'd consider it off-topic. maybe #bitcoin :)
08:28 < nsh> i have it on excellent authority that i don't care :)
08:29 < PeterR> Psztorc: I can confirm.  Based on my calls and talks, the Chinese are onboard with 2 MB.
08:29 < r0ach> China will fall behind the Bobby Lee tweet he already sent out most likely.  The east is all about falling in line and who else is bigger in China?
08:29 < nsh> please take it somewhere else
08:29 < psztorc> My mistake (?). It seemed on topic to me, I'm happy to discontinue.
08:30  * nsh smiles
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08:47 < kanzure> speaking of the /topic, why are we mentioning bitcoin.ninja twice?
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08:48 < gwillen> kanzure: because we like bitcoin and we like ninjas?
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09:05 < bsm117532> Join us this evening in NYC for a review of the Scaling Bitcoin conference, lively discussion, and after, beers! http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/events/227345782/
09:06 < bsm117532> segwit, blocksize, and lightning are in the discussion queue.
09:08 < nsh> streamed?
09:10 < bsm117532> nsh: no, not streamed.
09:10 < nsh> ah, nm
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09:26 < coinoperated> bsm117532   too bad won't be in NYC tonight, would love to make it.  DC needs such a meetup.
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09:43 < Luke-Jr> r0ach: block withholding attacks do not harm Bitcoin..
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09:51 < r0ach> well, I disagree on the effect of that not harming the economic incentives of Bitcoin, but better question:
09:52 < r0ach> I know you're a programmer and not a military strategist, but do you believe PoW mining even passes elementary game theory?  Seeing as how the real end game game theory of mining is to accumulate greater than 50% hash rate placed in multiple rathole pools (sybil attack),
09:53 < r0ach> because if you don't do it, someone else can, so the obvious game theory scenario is to accomplish the attack yourself but not execute it in order to protect your own investment
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09:59 < gavinandresen> r0ach: see https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/presentations/Day2/6-Sveinn-Valfellsmining-slides-montreal.pdf  for hash rate that gives max profit. Run the numbers and you'll find it is less than 50% (because you end up "competing against yourself")
09:59 < gavinandresen> r0ach: ... that's ignoring block withholding attacks...
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10:08 < r0ach> I'll look at it, it's just hard to not make the conection that you're dealing with a system of security through obscurity when pool mining itself is a reputation based system already.  If incentives direct me towards accumulating greater than 50% hash in order to protect my investment against others initiating the attack against me, while placing the hash in multiple pools (sybil) as
10:08 < r0ach> to not "offend" anyone,
10:09 < r0ach> since nobody can actually verify who the pool owners are, it's virtually the same thing as me owning greater than 50% out in the open since nobody can verify I do or don't.
10:09 < r0ach> hence the "security through obscurity" comment
10:11 < r0ach> making the only way I can rationalize holding BTC is telling myself it's a system of fault recovery after the fact of double spends rather than fault tolerance
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10:16 < gavinandresen> r0ach: okey dokey.  the economic argument that it is irrational to own more than 30% (or wherever the max-profit is, based on costs given in that pdf) doesn't care if it is solo mining, using one pool, or hiding hashpower among multiple pools.
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10:17 < gavinandresen> ... if you want to get into economically irrational 51% attacks, then also "okey dokey"
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10:31 < zookolaptop> Related: I've been wondering approximately how much of mining investment is pure hardware costs.
10:32 < zookolaptop> The reason is I'm planning to use a memory-oriented PoW in Zcash.
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10:32 < zookolaptop> Inasmuch as that succeeds at making commodity hardware (RAM) efficient for mining, that's good because it lowers barriers to entry for mining,
10:32 < zookolaptop> but it's bad because it lowers barriers to exit for mining,
10:33 < zookolaptop> since you can repurpose or resale your RAM if you stop mining.
10:33 < zookolaptop> And I'm wondering how *big* of a danger that represents.
10:33 < kanzure> opportunity cost modeling should show this ya?
10:33 < zookolaptop> I.e. if for some reason Bitcoin mining ASICs were resaleable for near their original costs, how much would that reduce the sunk costs of today's Bitcoin miners.
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10:34 < zookolaptop> kanzure: my question is empirical rather than theoretical.
10:34 < zookolaptop> It is: for today's Bitcoin miners, how much of their capital investment is independent of the PoW.
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10:39 < midnightmagic> zookolaptop: Onramping a mining effort where the mining can be resold for other purposes was one of the primary draws for early bitcoin mining.
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10:40 < midnightmagic> Since it essentially eliminated most of the risk of hardware capital outlay.
10:40  * kanzure looks at logs
10:40 < kanzure> 18:41 < gmaxwell> I did some calculations and concluded that if the energy cost of the memory hard function is zero then at some level of attack amortization the memory hard function will lose against an energy hard function. But thats a stupid argument, since the energy costs are not zero.
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10:41 < r0ach> Mining is basically just a futures contract where you're required to lock collateral with time opportunity cost.  I don't believe it's the re-sale of the goods that's most relevant in nature, just the time opportunity cost.
10:45 < zookolaptop> midnightmagic: yep.
10:45 < zookolaptop> midnightmagic: that's an excellent point.
10:46 < zookolaptop> r0ach: well, it was your questioning that reminded me about this, because the fact that the current Bitcoin miners have large sunk costs in Bitcoin-specific ASICs
10:46 < zookolaptop> makes them less likely to risk damaging Bitcoin's value in order to make a profit.
10:47 < zookolaptop> For example Joseph Bonneau's fantastic "Why Buy When You Can Rent?" paper, which argues pretty effectively that the cost of an attack that rolls Bitcoin back 6 blocks should approach the mining reward from those 6 blocks, i.e. 150ⓑ today.
10:48 < zookolaptop> The best reason I can come up with why that attack isn't deployed in practice is that the miners don't want to rent out their hashpower to randos because that might crash Bitcoin.
10:48 < zookolaptop> So, yeah, the question of whether that same calculus would be in effect if the hardware had resale value is on my mind.
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10:52 < bsm117532> zookolaptop: I'm of the opinion that memory-hard is the wrong way to go because of what I call the "external majority" -- there's more than 51% of your mining power (memory) in existence that is NOT currently being used for mining, and it can be reallocated.
10:52 < bsm117532> You do actually want your mining hardware to have no other use.
10:52 < bsm117532> I made this argument in a recent blog post: http://blog.sldx.com/can-proof-of-work-be-useful/
10:52 < zookolaptop> Ah yes. You told me this in person at SB/HK and I did look at your blog post after.
10:52 < r0ach> My view of mining is, it's required for Austrian origin of money schools of thought, but afterwards, the outside entropy is just an attack vector where you would do better in trying to eliminate it by replicating the time opportunity cost/futures contract essence of mining with say
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10:53 < zookolaptop> r0ach: ah! I think what you want is PoW bootstrap shifting to PoS!
10:53 < r0ach> 1001 deterministic block producters, and forcing people to bid and lock collateral for those positions.
10:53 < zookolaptop> Which seems to be what a lot of people are trying nowadays, including Ethereum.
10:53 < bsm117532> zookolaptop: javascript injection will be used to mine your coin with a botnet.
10:53 < r0ach> no, vitalik uses a flat rate
10:53 < r0ach> which is prone to sybil
10:53 < zookolaptop> bsm117532: similar to how botnets mined Bitcon at one phase.
10:54 < r0ach> or he will set the flat rate too high to try and avoid sybil, and then coins lost over time or mass distribution will eventually make the system unworkable
10:54 < bsm117532> Exactly.  But with a memory-hard function, that vulnerability will never go away.
10:54 < instagibbs> bsm117532, as long as I get to choose block inclusion policy while the virus mines ;)
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10:55 < bsm117532> instagibbs has an AS400 in his basement.  He's happy to keep your ledger for you on it.  ;-)
10:55 < brg444> zookolaptop bsm117532 I believe psztorc has some pretty good insight about this as well on his blog
10:56 < bsm117532> brg444: Yes I linked them in a comment.
10:57 < r0ach> zookolaptop: in regards to collateral systems, you have two options, finite number of block producers and a bid system to become one, or floating number of block producers and a flate rate.  Not sure why Ethereum chooses the second option since the first option seems far superior.
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11:01 < instagibbs> how do you avoid bidding censorship
11:01 < zookolaptop> r0ach: Hm.
11:02 < instagibbs> flat rate means less incentive to censor, I think? or less opportunity maybe. Maybe not.
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11:24 < rasengan> fyi satoshi@vistomail is not satoshi for those of you who may have wondered.  satoshi always knew the direction things were headed - even asking us to make a gentleman's agreement not to use gpu mining at the beginning.  he also knew in 20 years there would be massive transactions or 0.
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11:26 < Taek> rasengan: we don't really consider satoshi discussion to be on-topic. Words should be evaluated by their merit, not by the mouth that birthed them
11:26 < rasengan> Agreed.
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12:34 < r0ach> He contradicted himself by making that statement anyway.  Bitcoin is backed by greed and beef jerky, so by asking people to form a gentleman's agreement, he's asking to throw away the incentives for which the network is secured.
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12:37 < bsm117532> If incentives are misaligned with correct operation of the network (e.g. selfish mining), then we need to change the incentives.
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12:47 < bramc> Selfish mining is hard to fix at the protocol level without causing worse problems.
12:48 < bsm117532> bramc: This is what leads me down the braids path...
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12:50 < bramc> bsm117532 I understand the general sentiment behind braids but as I said before it's a very all or nothing proposition and I'd have to have a much deeper understanding of it myself and hear other people say they're comfortable with it before feeling comfortable with it.
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12:50 < bramc> It's one of those big goal ideas, like my proof of space stuff or peter todd's treechains
12:50 < bsm117532> Fully agree.
12:51 < e0> Has anyone done an analysis on all the things in Bitcoin that break due to length extension multicollisions if someone publishes a single SHA256 collision?
12:54 < kang_> bsm117532: Have you studied ethereum, where all orphans are paid nevertheless? Certainly looks like a braid..
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12:55 < bsm117532> kang_: Yes, but refs would be appreciated if you think it looks like a braid.  AFAIK they're just using GHOST, which I don't like because it actually makes some double-spend attacks easier.
12:56 < kang_> bsm117532: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/11/toward-a-12-second-block-time/
12:56 < bsm117532> Yes I read that a long time ago.
12:57 < kang_> bsm117532: I feel it is a very bad idea, i must add.
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12:57 < bsm117532> Braids will have an effective "block time" that is much faster than 1s.  Confirmation times are related to how long it takes to propagate to the entire network, and I'd guess it will be in the range 10-30s.
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12:58 < bramc> kang_, Basically all the simplified variants of braids make the problems they're supposed to solve worse. There's a coherent theory behind it which has to be accepted en masse or not at all.
12:59 < kang_> bsm117532: Firstly, are braids technically same as the idea in this blogpost? Because they look same..
13:00 < bsm117532> kang_: They are very, very different.
13:01 < bsm117532> kang_: Ethereum is just using a variant on GHOST, which allows stale/orphan blocks to receive some reward. They still have a blockchain just like bitcoin. Braids expand the structure so blocks have multiple parents, resulting in a DAG.  Ethereum's structure is a tree (and so is Bitcoins if you include orphans).
13:02 < bsm117532> Ethereum blocks still have only one parent.
13:02 < kang_> bsm117532: I want to read more. Also have you studied IOTA, an altcoin?
13:02 < bsm117532> That's the fundamental difference, but opens a can of worms in complexity.
13:02 < bsm117532> Yes.  I don't think the Iota paper is very good.
13:04 < bsm117532> Fundamentally I think braids are the "right way" to have any kind of distributed database... So yeah, you can use it for IoT.  ;-)
13:04 < kang_> bsm117532: ok, but are braids same as the idea in IOTA? Can you give me a link to read more about braids please?
13:05 < bsm117532> https://scalingbitcoin.org/hongkong2015/presentations/DAY2/2_breaking_the_chain_1_mcelrath.pdf
13:05 < bsm117532> Corresponding paper will be out within a week...
13:05 < kang_> bsm117532: Because again, IOTA's blockbraid is a DAG and looks like it
13:05 < bsm117532> kang_: It is.
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13:06 < bsm117532> By defining "braid" I add the rule that a block can't name one of its ancestors of another parent as a direct parent. (e.g. grandpa is my parent) Let's define that as "incest".  So a Braid is a restriction on a DAG.
13:08 < bsm117532> Iota called their DAG a "tangle", and it contains these incest links, which I think don't serve any purpose an can be removed.
13:09 < bsm117532> (Graphically this results in triangles -- a Braid has no triangles)
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13:13 < instagibbs> you also forbid double-spends, right?
13:14 < instagibbs> conflicting history, that is
13:14 < bsm117532> instagibbs: Of course.  Double-spends define forks just as they do in bitcoin, and miners have to evaluate which one has the most work.
13:15 < bsm117532> This is unlike GHOST which keeps the losing side of a double-spend around, and awards some of the block reward to the losing miner.
13:15 < bsm117532> So mine is somewhat closer "in spirit" to bitcoin...
13:19 < bramc> I just sent some mail about the advantages of adding proofs of time to proofs of space, so I'll include here, sorry about the size:
13:19 < bramc> (1) What a miner can do is changed form 'Mine a history of size X' to 'Extend a blockchain with the extension of size X at a rate of one second of blockchain for one second of time spent'. This fixes re-mining since genesis attacks, because the attacker won't catch up with the public blockchain.
13:20 < bramc> (2) Blocks are all the same value. A block isn't better or worse, it's simply a valid block, with values only changing when the work difficulty is recalculated.
13:20 < bramc> (3) Grinding attacks have a substantial cost, of one cpu having to be devoted to the amount of time covered for every branch explored
13:21 < bramc> My thinking about grinding attacks on proof of space systems assumes they have those properties
13:22 < kang_> bramc: What is proof of space?
13:22 < bramc> kang_, https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/796.pdf
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13:25 < kang_> bramc: Since it was used in the same line as proof-of-time, I thought proof of space meant proof of real world space (akin to proof-of-time). It should be called proof-of-diskspace, because proof-of-time deals with real world time and is not the same as proof-of-computationTime
13:26 < bramc> Not following you. They call it 'proof of space' because the space could be memory or tape or any storage medium not necessarily disk.
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13:28 < kanzure> bramc: i do not see your email in the bitcoin-dev moderation queue.
13:28 < bsm117532> Forgive me, I'm about to spam a multi-line idea in the middle of your conversation.
13:28 < bsm117532> I just realized something pretty interesting: Define a sibling as a bead parallel to mine in a braid (analogous to a bitcoin orphan). You have to split fees among siblings. I can also define siblings as all beads that are descendants of my parents and ancestors of my children. With this definition I can expand outward: Let the previous sentence be called "rank (1,1) siblings".
13:28 < bramc> A proof of time is a proof of sequential work, it has to have a work reset as well.
13:28 < bsm117532> Let "rank (2,2) siblings" be the descendants of my grandparents, and ancestors of my children's-children, excluding my own ancestors and descendants.  The two numbers of the rank (m,n) specify how far up the ancestor and descendant direction to go, then follow their descendant and ancestor links, respectively, to find siblings in the graph, always excluding your own ancestors and descendants.
13:28 < bsm117532> Now: this gives us a way to recognize miners that are doing something funny.  A miner could attempt to steal fees from other beads/blocks, by becoming their sibling.  In so doing you would find rank (m,n) siblings with m>n, if other miners quickly name your block/bead as a parent, but you're naming older blocks as parents.
13:28 < bsm117532> A block withholding attack is one where the miner mines a block/bead, but doesn't publish it.  This will result in siblings with n>m.
13:28 < bsm117532> Thus we can use the existence of siblings with m != n to put a dis-incentivize directly in the incentive formula.
13:28 < bramc> kanzure, This is in a private thread. Not quite ready for general consumption.
13:28 < bsm117532> </done>
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13:32 < bsm117532> "cohort" as defined in my talk is the set of all such siblings.
13:33 < kang_> bramc: Proof of time deals with real time (hh:mm). Proof of space might be expected to prove real space cordinates (x,y,z) as opposed to proof of storage
13:34 < bramc> kang_, Yeah it's proof of storage really
13:34 < bramc> although that other thing would be better called proof of location
13:34 < kang_> Right, sorry
13:34 < bsm117532> Ok fine I'll post it again. ;-) http://blog.sldx.com/proof-of-location/
13:35 < bramc> Sadly current infrastructure can't do proof of location with granularity better than which planet.
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13:36 < bramc> And even that's dicey
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13:37 < bsm117532> bramc: You could use radio pings on the surface of the earth instead.  Like a cryptographic Loran-C...
13:38 < bramc> bsm117532 There isn't a blockchain with sufficiently low granularity and location information to support that right now. Aside from the hardware not being there.
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13:39 < kang_> Aren't pulsars the interstellar gps system? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque#Relative_position_of_the_Sun_to_the_center_of_the_Galaxy_and_14_pulsars
13:40 < bsm117532> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/515321/an-interplanetary-gps-using-pulsar-signals/
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13:49 < arubi> two hundred years ago, we had to use a candle if we wanted to read a map in the darkness.  today we're thiking about navigation in space using pulsars..
13:49 < arubi> standard candles seems appropriate
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13:50 < brg444> ^ #resistcapitalism
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13:51 < arubi> sign up for #CapResistt - your one quick stop for #Capitalism #Resistance!
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13:52 < brg444> you know that was an actual thing on twitter a couple days ago heh :P
13:54 < arubi> I don't, can't say I'm too surprised :)  I hope they sold che guevara t-shirts :P
13:56 < kang_> arubi: Whats more mind bogling is that we already etched the navigation diagram on the outsides of our spaceships, in case ET some day find them.
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14:00 < arubi> kang_, tell me about it,  my name is one of these: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/glory-name.html !
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14:20 < r0ach> brg444: Contrary to what Helicopter Todd said about subjectivity of the word "evil" in finance, I think if you define slavery as evil, then most monetary instruments that defer the need to barter might fit that category.
14:20 < r0ach> One man's inflation by central bank is another man's centrally administered slavery system.  Another man's increased purchasing power by trying to corner the market on a finite commodity used as currency is a decentralized slavery system.
14:21 < brg444> r0ach what's that got to do with -wizards and why are you pinging me?
14:21 < r0ach> so everyone can find something to protest about
14:21 < r0ach> was responding to your off topic post...
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16:12 < dgenr8> gavinandresen: why does nobody talk about that paper? Valfells pointed out that at some point miner profit soon grows slower than cost, because each hashing percentage point costs more than the last
16:12 < dgenr8> gavinandresen: why is that not DE-centralization pressure?
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16:56 <@jcorgan|away> https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/013.pdf
16:56 <@jcorgan|away> Threshold-optimal DSA/ECDSA signatures and
16:56 <@jcorgan|away> an application to Bitcoin wallet security
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17:17 < bramc> jcorgan, How practical are those?
17:21 < adam3us> that's kind of heavy it involves damgard-jurik extended version of paillier just to have a group big enough not to wrap under the steps of dsa
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17:23 <@jcorgan> i'm not knowledgable enough to really pick it apart but i do know enough to trust adam3us or gmaxwell's assessment :-)
17:24 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o jcorgan] by jcorgan
17:24 < jcorgan> hmm, not sure how that happened
17:25 < adam3us> so paillier is a RSA related public key encryption algoritm that is additively homomorphic
17:26 < adam3us> it works in field N^2 instead of field N=p*q with RSA.
17:26 < adam3us> then damgard-jurik allows N^k where k>=2 and so even bigger values to be encoded without wrapping
17:27 < adam3us> so if you make it big enough you can compute some of the dsa stuff without it wrapping while still blinded
17:27 < amiller> how big are they proposing here?
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17:29 < amiller> N > q^8 where q is the modulus of the underlying dsa
17:30 < bramc> The basic measures of complexity are: round trips, bandwidth needed, CPU needed
17:33 < amiller> so i'm guessing without much thought that their crypto elements are all around 2048-bits, that seems pretty reasonable
17:35 < amiller> bramc, constant number of rounds (4, i think), and their 2-party signing example (Table 2) says 13 seconds (with the computation on a phone taking most of the time)
17:36 < bramc> 4 rounds of 2048 bits is nothing. Sounds like the big bottleneck is CPU, and even that is mostly under control
17:36 < bramc> Of course it needs to be vetted
17:36 < bramc> From a security standpoint
17:36 < adam3us> amiller i think yes but 2048^k bignums which are larger still
17:38 < amiller> yeah... i'd like to see an explicit breakdown of the transcript size for each round
17:38 < amiller> and i have no idea what k is
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17:39 < adam3us> i'd have to re-read the paper it's been a while. i think it's just you know 256^m < 2048^k
17:39 < adam3us> where m arises from how many multiplicative ops there are at the threshold DSA level
17:41 < bramc> amiller, I sent a follow-up mail explaining the motivations for proof of time a bit better. My construction does all of those by what feels like a bunch of funny coincidences.
17:41 < amiller> i don't know where you're getting the damgard jurik thing, afaict they're using exactly paillier
17:42 < amiller> maybe this has changed since their earlier unpublished zero-conf drafts
17:45 < adam3us> oh maybe it's a new but related paper.
17:45 < adam3us> damgard-jurik is done using N^k k>=2 rather than N^2 so it gives bigger numbers
17:48 < amiller> it's okay to change all the content of a paper until it's accepted in a conference
17:48 < amiller> as long as the results get better and all the prior authors are still there (new ones may be added too)
17:48 < amiller> i call this convention "replace by cite"
17:50 < adam3us> maybe you could do that just by using bigger N and then just use paillier i think that'd work
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18:37 < bramc> amiller, Sent a response to you which includes a better construction which probably should be published as a 'real' paper.
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21:00 < dcousens> what is the state of opinion/review around the conf. transactions integration with segwit?
21:00 < dcousens> Was it possible or?
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21:08 < bramc> dcousens, I don't believe there's any movement to putting confidential transactions on bitcoin proper, they're just on side chains.
21:24 < jcorgan> well, someone proposed it on -dev mailing list
21:25 < jcorgan> as part of bitcoin proper, but i don't know if there is any actual coding or interest in implementation
21:25 < dcousens> jcorgan: that is what I was referring to
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21:25 < jcorgan> oh, maybe i misread then
21:28 < dcousens> as usual, there is probably more discussion about it on reddit than has actually occurred
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21:32 < jcorgan> if it's on reddit its probably some evil plot by bitcoin elitists to censor people's transactions or some such
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21:37 < maaku> dcousens: CT is not going to be part of the segwit deployment if that is the question
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21:37 < maaku> for one thing, CT takes 32x as much CPU resources to validate
21:37 < dcousens> maaku: that was my impression,  I suppose someone should tell these poor folks on reddit
21:38 < maaku> dcousens: maybe if you don't mind having 62kB blocks ;)
21:39 < dcousens> maaku: heh, sounds appealing
21:39 < AdrianG> maaku: can CT validation be done in batches to speed up?
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21:41 < bramc> I believe segwit contains hooks which would make adding confidential transactions straightforward, but as everybody's saying the size requirements are gnarly. Given the current discussion around blocksize it seems like a non-starter.
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21:48 < maaku> there is potential for doing a segwit-like CT softfork that discounts the CT range proofs significantly
21:49 < maaku> but right now thta's a pretty far out goal with a good deal of work to be done both in designing what that would look like and getting scalability improved enough to make such costs absorbable
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21:58 < adam3us> someone proposed a soft-fork of CT on the dev-list
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22:00 < Dizzle> CT?
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22:08 < maaku> confidential transactions
22:10 < Dizzle> ty
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 13 00:00:03 2016