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04:48 < nsh> does replace-by-fee really break unreversiblility of transactions?
04:57 < AaronvanW> nsh: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/
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04:58 < nsh> ty
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08:05 < tromp_> there is no such thing as unreversiblility of 0-confirmed txs
08:05 < helo> s/0/N/
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08:08 < zookolaptop> ;-)
08:08 < zookolaptop> ^-- smiley at helo's barbed quip
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08:10 < zookolaptop> helo: you might be interested in https://twitter.com/zooko/status/683208911655141376
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08:11 < zookolaptop> If you want to know my thoughts on that, be sure and keep clicking until you reach the “៚”. Twitter won't necessarily show you all of 14 the sentences at first.
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08:11 < zookolaptop> all 14 of
08:17 < bsm117532> zookolaptop: Bitcoin has partition tolerance through reorgs, but a long-time network partition due to natural disaster, war, or unfortunate boat anchor is real.
08:18 < tromp_> for reference, what's the longest reorg in bitcoin history?
08:18 < zookolaptop> tromp_: good question.
08:18 < bsm117532> The answer to this is not to impose "finality" but to geographically partition users and miners so that as few tx's have to be reversed as possible.  e.g. I can still pay for water at the local store after a hurricane.
08:19 < tromp_> and what reorg length causes alarm bells to go off in bitcoind ?
08:19 < zookolaptop> bsm117532: my argument is you don't get a choice. Your users impose finality on you. All you get to do is decide how to deal with that.
08:19 < zookolaptop> If your choice is "*I* won't impose finality!", that's okay, but then there's ambiguity about what would happen in practice.
08:19 < bsm117532> zookolaptop: This kind of partition healing basically requires braids.
08:19 < zookolaptop> I love the idea of braids. :-)
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08:20 < bsm117532> Today is my deadline to finish the paper.  :-/
08:20 < tromp_> i love the game braid:)
08:20 < zookolaptop> STOP READING IRC
08:20 < bsm117532> Ha!  okay!
08:20 < zookolaptop> :-)
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08:25 < Taek> tromp_: iirc it's 18, and it happened during BIP50?
08:26 < Taek> the database hardfork bug
08:26 < tromp_> Taek: we're really interested in one not associated with a code hardfork
08:27 < tromp_> a "regular" reorg to the extent it's possible to call a long reorg regular:)
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08:36 < zookolaptop> How deep was the reorg that revealed the prevalence of non-verifying mining?
08:38 < dabura667> 6 block afaik
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09:33  * Taek is also finishing his ledger papaer
09:33 < Taek> *submission
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09:36 < tromp_> where are you submitting?
09:39 < amiller> good luck to you both!
09:44 < tromp_> ah, the new journal called ledger...
09:45 < zookolaptop> Yay science.
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10:56 < bsm117532> A braid just for zooko: http://imgur.com/VC5xV1j
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10:57 < bsm117532> The colors correspond to successive cohorts (or "generations") -- this the logical analog of "block height" and is identical to it when there are no siblings.
10:57 < bsm117532> genesis is on the left, chain tips are in the lower right (there are two).
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11:00 < fluffypony> aren't you supposed to be studying, bsm117532?
11:00 < fluffypony> :-P
11:00 < fluffypony> oh writing, not studying
11:00 < bsm117532> I was making the code to make that graph so I can put it in my paper! :-P
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11:00 < fluffypony> lol!
11:00 < bsm117532> And soon you can make these graphs too...
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13:06 < ryan-c> anyone here familiar with the secp256k1_ec_{pub,priv}key_tweak_add functions?
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13:06 < ryan-c> do they simply do point addition with a small private key?
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13:08 < gmaxwell> nothing small about it?
13:08 < ryan-c> the tweak is a unsigned char
13:09 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: it's array.
13:09 < gmaxwell> See the fine documentation!
13:09 < gmaxwell>  * Returns: 0 if the tweak was out of range (chance of around 1 in 2^128 for
13:09 < gmaxwell>  *          uniformly random 32-byte arrays, or if the resulting private key
13:09 < ryan-c> I missed that there was a * there - derp
13:09 < gmaxwell>  *          would be invalid (only when the tweak is the complement of the
13:09 < gmaxwell>  *          private key). 1 otherwise.
13:09 < gmaxwell>  * Args:    ctx:    pointer to a context object (cannot be NULL).
13:10 < gmaxwell>  * In/Out:  seckey: pointer to a 32-byte private key.
13:10 < gmaxwell>  * In:      tweak:  pointer to a 32-byte tweak.
13:10 < gmaxwell>  */
13:10 < gmaxwell> SECP256K1_API SECP256K1_WARN_UNUSED_RESULT int secp256k1_ec_privkey_tweak_add(
13:10 < gmaxwell>     const secp256k1_context* ctx,
13:10 < gmaxwell>     unsigned char *seckey,
13:10 < gmaxwell>     const unsigned char *tweak
13:10 < gmaxwell> ) SECP256K1_ARG_NONNULL(1) SECP256K1_ARG_NONNULL(2) SECP256K1_ARG_NONNULL(3);
13:10 < ryan-c> I have that open now, apparently I am simply bad at reading.
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13:13 < gmaxwell> no problem.
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13:14 < ryan-c> what i want to do is increment a keypair using key addition using a small private values to quickly generate many public keys - similar to what vanitygen does, but using libsecp256k1 rather than openssl to do it.
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13:15 < ryan-c> secp256k1_ec_pubkey_combine seems to be what I want
13:19 < ryan-c> except that I'm probably going to use the lower level functions directly because I'm already using a custom fork of the lib :p
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13:22 < gmaxwell> user beware on lower level functions.
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13:25 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: Yes, I am aware that they are full of dragons.
13:26 < ryan-c> I'm adding some functionality to brainflayer and getting slightly better perf is worth the dragons.
13:27 < ryan-c> that ship sailed when this file was added https://github.com/ryancdotorg/brainflayer/blob/master/ec_pubkey_fast.c
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13:40 < waxwing> curious ryan-c , what is the value in adding *small* offsets specifically? does it allow you to get a larger set of keys checked more quickly? (because less doublings or something like that)
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13:41 < ryan-c> waxwing: it is *much* faster to generate a public key by adding two public keys together than by deriving a public key from a new unrelated private key.
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13:42 < waxwing> ryan-c: ok, makes sense. but you have to know the privkeys for both the pubs you add right
13:42 < ryan-c> yes
13:43 < ryan-c> I'm implementing some code to scan for keys where most of the bits of the private key are known
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13:45 < ryan-c> specific offsets do not actually matter
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13:59 < gmaxwell> it's much faster to double than add.
13:59 < ryan-c> i stand corrected
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14:00 < ryan-c> but in this case, i need to add, not double.
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16:28 < dcousens> CodeShark: you ACK'd SegWit, but for what party? :P
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16:29 < phantomcircuit> dcousens, https://github.com/ciphrex/mSIGNA/tree/segwit
16:30 < dcousens> ah, so it was for mSIGNA :)
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17:53 < zmanian_> Proof of space/time cc/bramc https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035
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17:56 < zookolaptop> http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/035
17:56 < zookolaptop> oops,
17:56 < zookolaptop> beat me to it.
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18:09 < bsm1175321> But at the end of the day, the cost of storage is really just a proxy for the energy used to produce it.  Everything comes back to energy.
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18:18 < bsm1175321> Both CPU and storage have a cost of production, and a linear in time energy usage (even if storage uses less power).  If their power distribution curves were wildly different this might make more sense, but they're exactly the same with different slopes.  I can integrate these two curves and figure out how much energy went in, and that's how much a combined PoW/PoST will be worth.
18:19 < bsm1175321> There's also a very large "external" majority of storage that could be taken over by a botnet/virus, to mine a currency based on something like this.  And unlike CPU, you're not going to ASIC your way out of the existence of this external storage.
18:20 < bsm1175321> TL;DR I'm confused why so many others are excited about proof-of-storage...
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18:24 < bramc> bsm117532 The difference is there's already plenty of sunk cost into storage media already sitting around doing nothing
18:25 < zookolaptop> *popcorn*
18:25 < Taek> bramc: hopefully not for much longer :)
18:25 < zookolaptop> *lol*
18:25 < zookolaptop> Round one to Taek!
18:25 < bramc> The naming on that paper and timing of it is a bit suspicious, I wonder if they got the idea directly or indirectly from me
18:26 < gmaxwell> bramc: I know I was surprised to not find your name in it!
18:28 < bramc> Hrm, apparently they didn't get it from me, this scheme is much cruder than what I've come up with. Maybe it's time for me to do an at least reasonable writeup of my ideas.
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18:29 < bramc> Also I think their 'candidate construction' is the same one I and everybody else came up with, which is unfortunately busted.
18:33 < bramc> Sigh, their construction is even more busted than that, because it has no canonicalization properties at all.
18:43 < bsm1175321> bramc: I'd like someone to address my argument about the "external majority" and botnets/criminals taking advantage of it.
18:52 < bramc> bsm117532 Not sure what your argument is
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18:53 < bramc> And, um, maybe the proof of space in this paper does work. It seems to be along the lines of my hoped for fixing of the busted simple algorithm rather than that pebble crap
18:54 < zookolaptop> bsm1175321: one of my counter-arguments to that is "It didn't kill Bitcoin."
18:54 < zookolaptop> bsm1175321: the older I get (and I'm getting a *lot* older) the more empirical I get.
18:54 < zookolaptop> Whatever worked, or at least didn't fail too hard, before, is good enough for me. ;-)
18:55 < bsm1175321> bramc: There is a large amount of storage that is unused on internet-connected PC's.  A botnet could use it to mine coins that used proof-of-space, and easily perform a 51% attack.
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18:55 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin's creator argued the botnet operators would make more behaving honestly.. for bitcoin that worked out.
18:55 < gmaxwell> The logic isn't necessarily the same for arbritary altcoins.
18:55 < bramc> bsm117532 That isn't a crypto problem
18:56 < zookolaptop> gmaxwell: good warning against the dangers of naive empiricism.
18:56 < gmaxwell> (e.g. you're j-cracker, bitcoin existing and working is pretty obviously in your interest.  Litecoin227-the-revernge... not so obviously)
18:56 < bsm1175321> bramc: certainly not a crypto problem...but a practical problem... ;-)
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18:57 < bsm1175321> Don't underestimate the value of being small, new, and poorly understood, in giving bitcoin a window with few attackers.
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18:58 < bsm1175321> Also the value in bitcoin working properly because it was good for extortion...so botnets encrypt your drive instead :-/
18:59 < gmaxwell> when botnet operators were running bitcoin it was well known how to behave maliciously, and people did reorg attack some altcoins; e.g. IOcoin (or was it IXcoin?)
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19:00 < bsm1175321> gmaxwell: I'd love it if someday someone could assemble a history of altcoins...there's lots of lore that predates my activity.
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19:09 < roconnor> gmaxwell: hi
19:10 < gmaxwell> roconnor: HI
19:11 < frankenmint> bsm1175321: mapofcoins.com
19:11 < frankenmint> but maybe first enjoy historyofbitcoin.com
19:12 < bsm1175321> Thanks frankenmint, I was hoping for a map of forks that matter though!  :-P
19:13 < bsm1175321> historyofbitcoin is gone
19:13 < frankenmint> hmm maybe its org
19:13 < frankenmint> yup its .org
19:13 < bsm1175321> I've spent some time looking at the bitcoin git commit history.  It's a horrible mess...
19:14 < frankenmint> blah blah idk go fix it instead of complaining /s
19:14 < frankenmint> ;)
19:14 < bsm1175321> ;-)  just difficult to diff with scamcoins.
19:14 < gmaxwell> many things don't matter but for some single fact.
19:14 < bsm1175321> That's *definitely* not worth my time to fix.
19:15 < dEBRUYNE> bsm1175321: can´t you use this? http://mapofcoins.com/bitcoin
19:17 < frankenmint> Engineering does not solve social problems, historically it creates governance problems as opposed to solving them. No amount of engineering is going to fix this, and believing it will, will only make the problem worse.
19:17 < frankenmint> Bitcoin itself was supposed to solve the governance problem, and it was engineered to do so (remember consensus?).
19:17 < frankenmint> what do you guys think of that statement?
19:18 < bsm1175321> e.g. some coin attempted to make a really fast block time.  I'd like to know what it is, what happened, etc...
19:18 < frankenmint> I keep pasting externally and the prepending sentance is ignored
19:18 < frankenmint> pasting from an external source and ...
19:19 < frankenmint> seemed reasonable in rationale but am i missing perspecive on that?  By the way I read it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/41587m/andreasmantonopoulos_on_twitter_bitcoins/cyzzi36
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23:29 < Guest87980> hello
23:30 < Guest87980> please can someone help me build th e bitcoin classic for ubuntu server 14.04
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23:31 < op_null2_> try #bitcoin-classic
23:31 < bsm1175321> Oh god they didn't make a channel, did they?
23:33 < Guest87980> there is no one awake in this
23:33 < op_null2_> this guys is just trolling anyway, theres no code out for classic yet
23:33 < op_null2_> so i troll back
23:34 < op_null2_> trolololol
23:34 < Guest87980> i have the codes from github
23:34 < op_null2_> its the same as core right now
23:34 < op_null2_> they havent merged any changes
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23:37 < Guest87980> Почему это дерьмо не строить
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23:40 < op_null2_> ^ (why does this shit not build) translation
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