--- Log opened Mon Jan 18 00:00:08 2016
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00:08 < JackH> maybe the creator should come back
00:08 < JackH> just for one msg if anything
00:08 < JackH> despite that it runs against his own vision to not control
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01:35 < AndChat|435584> Even Mike Hearn us surprised about Classic!!  Lol.. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10921219
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07:32 < kanzure> "Refund attacks on Bitcoin's payment protocol" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/024.pdf
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07:38 < erasmospunk> Does anybody have data on the transaction size distribution over the last years?
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07:41 < aj> erasmospunk: the blockchain does...? :) what do you want to know?
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07:45 < erasmospunk> how many big, near 100kb transactions there are compared to small ones, I imagine a skewed gaussian distribution
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08:04 < yossso> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41iw58/the_toomin_brothers_bitcoin_classics_main_devs
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08:15 < IanT_> Can someone point me to the release notes for RC1, cant seem to find them....
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08:29 < aj> erasmospunk: http://azure.erisian.com.au/~aj/tmp/txsizes-summary  -- columns are number of transaction, and transaction size rounded down to nearest 100 bytes. only counts transactions in blocks 300,000 until a week ago or so ago
08:30 < aj> erasmospunk: (oh, and excludes coinbase transactions)
08:31 < erasmospunk> aj: Just as I imagined, the vast majority is 200-300 bytes
08:32 < aj> erasmospunk: yeah, no surprise
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08:35 < erasmospunk> I just had an idea about a side chain inside the bitcoin blockchain
08:35 < erasmospunk> as a way to increase the block size in a soft fork manner
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08:36 < erasmospunk> the side chain data would be kept separate from the 1mb blocks
08:37 < erasmospunk> in order to go from the main chain to the side chain you sent your btc to an address
08:37 < instagibbs> I know we love fork drama, but let's keep Classic/Core stuff in -offtopic
08:38 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: this a channel for exchanging ideas, not politics
08:39 < instagibbs> erasmospunk, I'm speaking of the scrollback about classic/core. We agree.
08:40 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: I apologize if I was unpolite
08:40 < maaku> erasmospunk that is called an extension block
08:40 < erasmospunk> maaku: how they work?
08:40 < instagibbs> erasmospunk, no offense taken
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08:40 < maaku> Exactly like a sidechaim
08:40 < erasmospunk> I heard about them, but didn't dive in yet
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08:41 < erasmospunk> maaku: I mean, technically how it works
08:41 < erasmospunk> are the UTXOs consolidated?
08:41 < maaku> They work technically exactly like a side chain.
08:42 < instagibbs> erasmospunk, jtimon explaining a bit here: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/24549/how-is-a-side-chain-merging-back-to-bitcoin-chain-protected-against-double-spend
08:42 < instagibbs> google around you'll find stuff
08:42 < maaku> I suggest googling sidechains for an explanation or reading the side chain white paper (extension blocks is listed as a risk in the paper)
08:42 < erasmospunk> I imagine that to withdraw and deposit the miners would create a bit 1mb transaction with anyonecanpay
08:43 < erasmospunk> maaku: I have read the sidechain paper
08:43 < erasmospunk> why it is a risk?
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08:43 < erasmospunk> how can it be attacked?
08:44 < erasmospunk> if it in the soft fork consensus?
08:45 < erasmospunk> the idea that I am thinking now is fairly simple
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08:47 < erasmospunk> there is a transaction that the nodes keep in their memory and it is constructed deterministically in memory until it reaches 1mb
08:47 < erasmospunk> then it must be published on the main chain
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08:48 < erasmospunk> this transaction contains the sidechain/mainchain traffic of the previous day
08:49 < erasmospunk> i.e. the transaction is build by using blockchain transaction data with at least 144 confirmations
08:51 < instagibbs> erasmospunk, this might be good #sidechains-dev discussion instead
08:52 < erasmospunk> the thing is that this is not a sidechain
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08:53 < erasmospunk> that data is committed in the coinbase transaction
08:53 < erasmospunk> it is not a separate blockchain
08:53 < erasmospunk> it works similary to segwit
08:54 < erasmospunk> I am going to give it a name: subchain
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08:56 < instagibbs> you might want to google terms before naming things ;D
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08:56 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: anyway, just thinking out loud.
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09:24 < PeterR> Subchains: http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/public/downloads/subchains.pdf
09:26 < PeterR> ...on another topic: yesterday, maaku said he would quit bitcoin development if the longest chain soon included blocks over 1MB.
09:26 < PeterR> Does anyone else here share that sentiment?
09:26 < PeterR> Imagine in April 2016, there are a few 1.1 MB blocks in the Blockchain.  Would anyone else quit?
09:27 < zookolaptop> An alternative to quitting is to run software that rejects such blocks. :-)
09:27 < PeterR> Indeed.
09:28 < PeterR> If the hash power on the shorter chain was small, I suppose difficulty could be reset to keep it alive if necessary.
09:33 < MrHodl> "<maaku7> No one is arguing against an increase in capacity to 2MB. The contention is over the mechanism and by extension what happens next afterwards."
09:33 < PeterR> But that brings up a theoretical question: could two "serious" coins persist over the long term while both sharing the same hashing algorithm?
09:33 < MRL-Relay> [othe] no they can´t :)
09:34 < MrHodl> Thats why hardfork no good unless you reach full consensus.
09:35 < erasmospunk> I agree
09:35 < PeterR> I don't think two forks would persist either.  I suspect one chain would win or one chain would change the PoW algorithm (in order to co-exist).
09:37 < erasmospunk> PeterR: there are 3 powers in bitcoin, the users, the miners and the developers
09:37 < MrHodl> imo i dont think ANYONE will be risking to move to a 'new' fork.
09:37 < MrHodl> xt mined 0.00% blocks was it?
09:37 < PeterR> erasmospunk: agreed
09:38 < erasmospunk> the bitcoin is like this: if any of the 3 powers vetoes, then a hard fork cannot happen
09:38 < MrHodl> ^
09:38 < erasmospunk> only if all the 3 powers agree the hard fork can happen
09:38 < MrHodl> Thank god satoshi didnt care for the majority.
09:38 < PeterR> Hmm...I'll need to think more about that.
09:38 < erasmospunk> PeterR: agreed
09:39 < brg444>  As is stands there is dissent between users and arguably miners. As for the developers it's rather one sided with regards to avoiding a hard fork.... for now.
09:39 < erasmospunk> in fact I am working on the same concept you independently invented
09:39 < PeterR> Are you talking about subchain?
09:40 < erasmospunk> yes
09:40 < erasmospunk> I named it Soft Blocks
09:41 < erasmospunk> I am heavily rewriting it but it has the core concepts https://gist.github.com/erasmospunk/23040383b7620b525df0
09:41 < PeterR> Cool!  Did you do any writing about it that I can read?
09:41 < PeterR> haha
09:42 < erasmospunk> most of the serialization will change I came to a better format
09:42 < PeterR> My subchains paper is under peer review at Ledger currently.  From what I've gathered, most people agree with most of my claims yet some disagree regarding the added 0-conf security.
09:42 < erasmospunk> they are wrong
09:43 < erasmospunk> in fact my first version was using a chain, just like yours
09:43 < PeterR> ?
09:43 < PeterR> So you agree that subchains can add some measurable security to zero-conf
09:43 < erasmospunk> you did a lot of work on the math side, I respect that
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09:43 < erasmospunk> yes, compared to the current situation
09:44 < PeterR> Thanks, erasmospunk.  Some people don't understand how long it takes to put together math like that.  That paper was ~120 hours of work.
09:45 < PeterR> (Including the research time)
09:45 < erasmospunk> in a couple of hours I will post an updated version
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09:45 < erasmospunk> PeterR: I love math
09:45 < PeterR> Cool.  I'll be sure to take a look.
09:47 < PeterR> Me too!  I was pretty stoked that my integral in Eq. (8) had such an simple closed-form (approximate) solution.
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10:10 < maaku> PeterR my statement was a bit more nuanced than that but it is probably off topic for here
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10:12 < maaku> But so people can read for themselves : https://np.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41fup9/to_core_developers_we_are_not_firing_you_we_are/cz2c02w
10:14 < PeterR> Is the Bitcoin-Dev mailing list still a serious place for discussion?  My last submission was rejected and I was told to "contact Janet Yellen" (presumably the one from the Federal Reserve) if I wished to dispute.
10:14 < PeterR> https://bitco.in/forum/threads/gold-collapsing-bitcoin-up.16/page-266#post-9936
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10:18 < erasmospunk> What is more correct? Coin base or coinbase?
10:18 < brg444> Presumably the seriousness goes as far as the sincerity of the poster goes?
10:18 < brg444> oh he quit
10:18 < bsm1175321> PeterR has some kind of odd drive-by IRC client...he seems to see replies though.
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10:19 < bsm1175321> erasmospunk: I'd say coinbase.
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10:22 < instagibbs> lol erasmospunk told you to check your terms. you summoned King Troll (although it appears his trolling has slowed down a bit?)
10:24 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: someone should compile a bitcoin wizards and ninjas glossary
10:24 < instagibbs> (if he's still listening) I don't see the 0-conf enhancement. It's a gentleman's agreement only. No way to stop miners from signaling replacement without any orphan risk. That said, I think there is agreement that weak blocks / IBLT are helpful for non-adversarial mining.
10:29 < r0ach> PeterR:  Fork isn't political, it's economical, because like I said, it only makes sense for the price to go up if either on-chain volume is increasing or average price per transaction is increasing.  If capacity is full and no LN in sight for maybe years, when no change is done, it's the equivalent of giving investors the middle finger.
10:29 < r0ach> So investors will eventually give everyone else the middle finger and rebel
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10:35 < adlai> ;;later tell PeterR bitcoin is an opt-in social contract, a nomic-inspired game where those who publish lists of moves can choose to ignore certain moves, effectively rendering them illegal, but can NOT legalize a new move by simply printing it into existence. nakamoto consensus = anti-fiat. doesn't even the US constitution defend every individual against majority tyrrany?
10:35 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
10:36 < erasmospunk> instagibbs: mostly correct, there is an enhancement in security in non-adversarial mining
10:36 < erasmospunk> obviously it is not a match for a 6-conf transaction
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10:40 < PeterR> erasmospunk: Ledger would love to host such a glossary of terms.
10:41 < PeterR> http://ledgerjournal.org
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10:42 < PeterR> http://ledgerjournal.org/ojs/public/journals/1/AuthorGuide.pdf
10:42 < PeterR> I was thinking about working on that and including it as an appendix in the journal's Author Guidelines:
10:42 < PeterR> Haha but I have too much to do already
10:42 < instagibbs> erasmospunk, if we assume no one defects, sure.
10:42 < adlai> r0ach: Bitcoin would thrive at full capacity even without a working solution for off-chain/micropayments... it would cost more to add data to the chain, whether transactions or otherwise, and anybody wanting to use Bitcoin would need to buy more of it
10:43 < instagibbs> But the protocol could just be that replacements are fine, and signal those. I wouldn't call that "adversarial" exactly.
10:44 < instagibbs> maybe that's splitting hairs.
10:44 < adlai> PeterR: there's an old mailing list post by sipa where he expresses maaku's view as well
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10:45 < PeterR> instagibbs: the added security for 0-conf with subchains is small--especially at small block sizes--but quantifiable:
10:45 < PeterR> http://i.imgur.com/VqKH4o4.png
10:45 < PeterR> I think I proved this mathematically.  Either I made an error in the math, or an error in my assumptions.
10:46 < PeterR> If it's not true that 0-conf security is improved.
10:46 < r0ach> adlai: depends IF you view crypto as a store of value or not.  I view the value as a product of the utility it provides, which I believe is the rational viewpoint.  Not value through artificial scarcity of coin count.
10:46 < instagibbs> PeterR, I'd need to re-read the paper to get the assumptions/context. I don't doubt the math, I may doubt the assumptions :)
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10:47 < instagibbs> Like I said, I don't mind the work. Some sort of scheme will help with miner health in non-adversarial case and that's grea.
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10:47 < PeterR> I'd be interested to learn which assumption you disagreed with.  I modelled miners as rational short-term profit maximizing agents.
10:48 < instagibbs> This is assuming the "adding new txns causes orphan risk" thing?
10:48 < r0ach> adlai: the fact that crypto is vulnerable to black swan events that things like gold are not, means it has to make up the difference in increased utility.  Crypto doesn't live in a bubble.
10:50 < adlai> eh? everything is vulnerable to black swans, even as unimaginative as insider theft
10:50 < brg444> ^
10:50 < r0ach> I'm speaking from a store of value point
10:51 < adlai> bitcoin is useless if nobody views it as a store of value; not everybody is required to, but if nobody does, the incentives get quite funny
10:51 < PeterR> Instagibbs: it assumes that, ceteris paribus, the propagation/verification time increases if more information is propagated/verified.
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10:52 < instagibbs> at block discovery time?
10:52 < instagibbs> or just as a very general statement
10:52 < r0ach> adlai: assuming you achieve decent scalability, you really don't need to view it as a long term store of value because...we use fiat every day and that's exactly how it works
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10:53 < instagibbs> cheers, gtg
10:53 < PeterR> Specifically at block verification time.  The more *new* information sent at block verification time, the longer on average the new information will take to propagate/verify.
10:53 < instagibbs> Ok in that case: you can signal new txns out-of-band by committing to them in an op_return, so if you hit a weak block just inform your peers about the new txns in the chain.
10:54 < adlai> r0ach: i'm not aware of any research proving Nakamoto Consensus worth validating when the most valuable value-store is not Bitcoin.
10:55 < PeterR> Yes you could do this.  But that won't change the added 0-conf security.  I think I explain why quite well in my subchains paper.
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10:59 < r0ach> adlai:  If I'm a business and find Crypto valuable for international transactions for example, but don't even care about it's store of value, I might have tons of it on-hand just as the price of doing business with international customers as a float.  That float amount held by many business will prop the market cap up and
10:59 < r0ach> suddenly people can use it as a store of value even if nobody believes it is a store of value...so the chicken and egg scenario is, payment processing (utility) comes first before store of value
11:01 < brg444> ^ That's backwards. Read Szabo's paper Schelling Out on the origins
11:01 < brg444> Most forms of money not fiat start off as collectibles. Same for Bitcoin
11:02 < brg444> If no one cares to hold it as a store of value it will be impossible for your business to use it for international transactions.
11:03 < r0ach> well, Bitcoin itself didn't have value until someone bought a pizza, so the ability to buy pizza (utility) was the prime mover
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11:04 < adlai> practically speaking, Bitcoin's killer app was and always will be gambling. your poker buddies might play for monopoly money, but that neither builds nore topples empires
11:04 < adlai> (mining is gambling too!)
11:05 < r0ach> mining is a subsidized futures contract imo
11:05 < brg444> r0ach no see that is backward because the only reason somebody was able to buy pizza is because the recipient of the btc valued them enough to consider them worthy of holding them
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11:07 < r0ach> if you assume the initial coin recepient was a rational actor
11:09 < brg444> ... huh yes I do assume the guy didn't buy a pizza for someone on the other side of the world for shits and giggles. w/e this is outside the scope of this channel topic
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11:29 < nsh> could you express e.g. DES rounds as recurrence relations?
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12:18 < nsh> i think i was probably groping towards Best Affine Approximation attacks
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12:27 < nsh> (line of thought was using operator calculus on s-boxes or coupled LFSRs in stream ciphers to find approximating polynomials in a kind of laplace domain then solve algebraically and invert back to the discrete operation domain. the BAA corresponds to a differentiation of the approximated function, which becomes a - hopefully more tractable - zero/pole in the continuous complex frequency domain)
12:27 < nsh> (something similar is described in this thesis: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~huqi/MasterThesisR.pdf )
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13:20 < bsm1175321> Hmmm...braids totally destroy the necessity of SPV mining.  While a miner is verifying a new block, he doesn't need to switch to name that block as a parent until it's fully verified.  If he mines a block while verifying, his block will be a sibling, but he would still get his same difficulty-weighted coin allocation, and split any fees.
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13:43 < nsh> bsm1175321, observe with diagrams and stuff! so we don't have to take it your good word on it, as much as that counts :)
13:43 < nsh> -it
13:44 < bsm1175321> It's coming.  Just had that interesting thought and thought I'd share, adding it to my draft...
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13:53 < nsh> bsm1175321, awesome
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 19 00:00:09 2016