--- Log opened Sun Jan 31 00:00:19 2016
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13:02 < nsh> bsm1175321, how does this relate to your braid/bead ideas? http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf
13:03 < nsh> --
13:03 < nsh> The straightforward solution to this task requires the delivery of the blockchain, the verification of the proof of work it contains, and subsequently the examination of the last k blocks. It follows that the communication required to complete this task is linear in the length of the chain.
13:03 < nsh> At First thought the above seems the best one can hope: a sublinear in the length of the chain solution to the problem will be susceptible to an attacker that, using precomputation, can fool the verifier.
13:03 < nsh> Contrary to this intuition, we show that with a suitable modification to the current Bitcoin blockchain protocol (that incurs a single hash expansion in each block and gives rise to the notion of an interconnected blockchain) we can produce proofs of proof of work with sublinear complexity in the length of the chain hence enabling SPV to be performed much more efficiently
13:03 < nsh> --
13:05 < bsm1175321> That's the first I've heard of this.  Not related to braids AFAICT but I've had the same idea before -- one can easily build log(height) proofs in such a manner.
13:06  * nsh nods
13:06 < bsm1175321> e.g. if you break the block height into its binary representation, one can have miners commit to the PoW header in not only the previous block, but 2,4,8,16,32... blocks ago as well.  Seems best for SPV, as they state in the abstract.
13:07 < nsh> right
13:07 < bsm1175321> SPV in braids is something I need to give more thought to.  But I've figured out the analog quantity to "block height" such that any algorithm applied on block height can be applied on a braid too.
13:07 < nsh> oh?
13:08 < bsm1175321> Yes I've posted some pictures here before of "cohorts", and the concept was in my talk too.
13:08 < bsm1175321> one cohort is the analog of a bitcoin block.
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13:11 < bsm1175321> Here's one http://imgur.com/6aPWbqY
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13:13 < nsh> didn't see / read your talk yet
13:13 < nsh> links for that?
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13:14 < aknix> bsm1175321, Very cool
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13:14 < bsm1175321> nsh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fst1IK_mrng&feature=youtu.be&t=8258
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13:15 < nsh> ty
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14:48 < nsh> the main niggle i have about your proposal so far, bsm1175321, is that i suspect it opens up a whole new class of network segmentation attacks that might be difficult to reason about in incentive terms
14:49 < nsh> that's not pathological necessarily, but it worries me
14:49 < bsm1175321> That's a reasonable worry, but I'd argue it's true for Bitcoin as well.
14:49 < nsh> particularly in the network's vs. individual miner's view of cohort work
14:49 < bsm1175321> Speaking of which, do you know of any good analysis of network segmentation attacks against bitcoin?
14:49 < nsh> which depends on bead visibility which can be games much more easily than block visibility atm
14:49 < nsh> i would ask gmaxwell probably
14:50 < nsh> or kanzure
14:50 < nsh> *gamed
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14:50 < nsh> *partition attacks is probably the more received term
14:50 < bsm1175321> I'd put a horizon on it -- after 100 blocks and the rewards have been allocated, new beads referencing something more than 100 cohorts ago would be disallowed.  This effectively puts a time limit on a network split.
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14:51 < nsh> hmm
14:52 < bsm1175321> Well by allocating rewards proportional to difficulty, miners don't have to care about seeing the cohort network, because it doesn't affect their income.
14:52 < bsm1175321> What do you mean "network vs. individual miner"?
14:53 < Eliel_> nsh: could you expand a little on the segmentation attack thing. I somehow find myself unable to understand how it'd enable something that's not already possible.
14:55 < bsm1175321> Eliel_: I can think of one where a miner creates a bead with a very old parent.  This has the effect of merging cohorts across a long time period into a single cohort.  I'm not sure what good that does the miner though, because his payout would be effectively zero.
14:55 < bsm1175321> BTW this is one way to disallow such behavior.  Below some payout threshold, with the proper incentive structure, discard beads which have zero payout.
14:56  * nsh finishes watching talk before commenting further
14:56 < nsh> maybe i'm just stupid
14:56 < bsm1175321> nsh: I'm sure much of this is unclear.  My own understand of cohorts has improved since I gave that talk.
14:57 < nsh> (generally, however, it's not just particular miners with perverse strategies that we have to worry about. it's network adversaries who can manipulate large numbers of miners simultaneously)
14:57  * nsh nods
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16:16 < Eliel_> bsm1175321: requiring parent beads to not have conflicting transactions seems to me to incentivize miners to use some kind of an identity based fast consensus algorithm to avoid mining conflicting transactions at all.
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18:26 < bsm1175321> Eliel_: That's coming anyway with mempool synchronization/weak blocks/IBLT.  But the orphan problem is fundamental and they will still occur.  Another approach is to mine every transaction individually.  There's no reason we should relay (for free!) transactions so someone else can profit off them.  Hashcash was originally imagined as a barrier to entry to stop spam, and we can move it back to the tx submission po
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18:28 < bsm1175321> Discarding free p2p relay of transactions is a pretty deep change to the structure of Bitcoin though.  But I think probably a very good one -- there's no reason the protocol should enable mining centralization.  (But no way to prevent others from creating relay networks outside bitcoind itself)
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20:36 < roidster> bsm1175321: Are there significant advantages to one person one full node?
20:37 < bsm1175321> roidster: Protoplasm is not cryptographically identifiable.  So, that's a pipe dream at best.
20:44 < roidster> bsm1175321: Is it not possible for every handheld computer er a "smartphone" to be equiped with 128gb chip & 35gh/s ?
20:46 < bsm1175321> It is...what's your point?
20:47 < bsm1175321> Errr...rather that's my point above regarding mining at transaction submission.  Put mining chips in cell phones.  It won't match what centralized mining can do by a long shot, but should be an effective form of spam control.
20:48 < roidster> bsm1175321: That was where I was going. Seems to be an excellent form of DDoS
20:48 < roidster> ^End to DDoS
20:48 < bsm1175321> That was the original hashcash idea.  unfortunately it got turned into a crypto-currency.
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20:56 < roidster> bsm1175321: At current capacity of 1,042,003,037  GH/s if 29,771,515 (fewer than the good citizens of Calif.) handhelds had 35
20:56 < roidster> Gh/s they would dominate the network field.
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20:56 < bsm1175321> They wouldn't be operating continuously though.  Maybe a few seconds/minutes at a time or it would burn your battery.
20:57 < roidster> Raising it 2 orders of magintude would dominate. Are there any saleable advantages to this type of activity?
20:58 < bsm1175321> Well pay-your-own-tx fees is one...
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20:58 < bsm1175321> It's not a saleable advantage until a crypto-currency is established that can take advantage of it
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21:00 < roidster> Yes I had thta duiscussion on #bitcoin moments ago. There is one problem with scaling. That is with "fees". Currently acceptable minimum  is 0.001BTC correct?
21:00 < roidster> ^that
21:04 < roidster> If so, BTC is up againist an unacceptable scaling price barrier with miner fees as BTC>$100K. The minimum fee would inflate to a minimum of $1.
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21:06 < roidster> That might make a buyer of a cup of joe think twice about using BTC for payment channel.
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21:11 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] you can work out the economics of battery capcity in reverse. it costs about 1/10 of a cent to charge a battery so to match the current 1 million usd per day in mining energy use would require a billion cell phones draining their battery daily
21:11 < MRL-Relay> [smooth] (very rough numbers)
21:21 < roidster> MRL-Relay: And how many handhelds are the now?
21:21 < aj> roidster: minrelaytx is 5000 satoshi/kB, so 0.00005, which would be $5/kB or ~$1/transaction if BTC was $100k USD/BTC; 0.12 is taking the default back down to 1000 satoshi, though. and it's relay policy not consensus, so can just be decreased down to ~10 satoshi as the price increases
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21:40 < bsm1175321> I hate having these hard coded numbers in the system...
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21:56 < gmaxwell> What the heck! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1274102.msg13738914#msg13738914  (Forehead slapping warning: the last response from me will have you WTFing)
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22:24 < roidster> Such language from a CTO...uhhhh? ;-)
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