--- Log opened Mon Feb 01 00:00:20 2016
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05:02 < instagibbs> I literally lol'd at the hour thing
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07:45 < adam3us> so a few days ago we were talking about ext-blocks vs hard-forks. several people say that ext-blocks are worse. could they explain by what principle / reason / argument. i do see non-optin SPV risk if one's fullnode doesnt have the bandwidth to validate the extension. but if the ext-block is 2MB and the HF would be 2MB also - is there a difference?
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08:50 < Eliel_> adam3us: If there is, I can't guess at what it is.
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11:03 < silvaedium> yer a wizard harry!
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11:22 < Eliel_> adam3us: I do know that many people would actually want both SW and 2MB HF, though. Many think SW will be too little too late.
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11:34 < Luke-Jr> Eliel_: it doesn't make sense to do both, and SW will likely be far earlier than any HF *could* be
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11:36 <@kanzure> adam3us: they seem unwilling to elaborate in public.
11:37 < PeterR> Adam, for me it's (at least) two reasons:
11:37 < PeterR> #1. Extension blocks change the data structures in such a way that SPV nodes and other wallets would need to make compatible changes. Simply changing the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant is very simple in comparison.
11:37 < PeterR> #2. At least for the segwit proposal, block space in the segwit "extension block" is discounted by a factor of 4X--which seems like a "central plannerish" way to set prices.
11:38 < adam3us> PeterR: well on #1 SPV nodes trust miners anyway.. so that maybe no difference.
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11:41 < PeterR> I'm referring to the complexity and work required to support the change.  Upgrading wallets to support segwit is more work than bumping the 1,000,000 byte MAX_BLOCK_SIZE constant.  Do you disagree?
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11:51 < Eliel_> PeterR: In case you haven't paid attention, I think most here would want SW even if it wasn't being used to extend capacity. It is more complex and more work, but it also improves several other things at the same time. It's not that difficult to implement.
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11:55 < Luke-Jr> kanzure: adam3us: seriously, what is the benefit of ext-blocks? it's hugely complex.
11:55 < Luke-Jr> a soft-hardfork seems better in every way, and much simpler
11:56 < PeterR> Elilel: I like segwit too. What I don't like is the "accounting" needed to implement it as a hard fork. In order to limit the non-segwit data to 1,000,000 bytes, the rule is:
11:56 < PeterR> base x 4 + segwit <= 4,000,000 bytes
11:56 < PeterR> (Note that if segwit = 0, then this inequality reduces to "base <= 1,000,000 bytes").
11:56 < PeterR> But with segwit as a hardfork, we would have:
11:56 < PeterR> base + segwit <= 2,000,000 bytes
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11:56 < PeterR> Or more simply:
11:56 < PeterR> transactional data < 2,000,000 bytes
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11:57 < PeterR> *first sentence should read "to implement it as a SOFT fork"
11:57 < Eliel_> PeterR: I'd still prefer lower weight for the witness part.
11:58 < adlai> PeterR: I believe the point is that the non-opted-in network is not forced to even acknowledge the new network's existence
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11:58 < PeterR> I think the idea to possible adjust the weighting is very interesting.  But I would prefer it to be done through a market-driven process.
11:59 < PeterR> And the defaults should be set with some communication with the community.  Right now, people are surprised to hear that TXs with large signatures are given an effective discount of up to 75%.
12:00 < instagibbs> sigops are still bounded via cap
12:01 < PeterR> When people hear this, they think it might be a sneaky move to subsidize future TXs that could have large signatures (such as compact proofs used to return sidechain coins to the main chain).
12:01 < instagibbs> jtoomim already said as much
12:02 < instagibbs> it's to discourage utxo set growth
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12:02 < Eliel_> PeterR: I'd prefer a market driven process too. However, I have no idea whatsoever on how to actually implement it in a way that would work in practice and that wouldn't add complexity to the implementation, that 1:4 is fine for now. We can replace SW in the future with the exact same process, if a better way is figured out.
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12:03 < instagibbs> in a future HF we can do a linear combination of cost factors, and then argue about how to make them dynamic instead of just blocksize. woo
12:03 < PeterR> Market process is easy: start with 1:1 or 1:2 or whatever seems to minimize the complaints.  But then let miners easily adjust the price for the two types of block space.  (Of course, taking into account any hard-coded limits).
12:04 <@kanzure> "changing the constant is is simple" (notice how there's no link to the large diffs that have been proposed)
12:05 < TD-Linux> PeterR, but the "hard-coded limits" are what's under the discussion. miners can already do as you describe
12:05 < instagibbs> Miners would be able to fiddle to their heart's desire below that linear combination.
12:06 < PeterR> TD-Linux: Yes then can do as I described.  I'd like to make it easier for them by giving them the best tools, and make the dialog about the price of the two types of block space a more visible topic.
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12:13 < PeterR> *they
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12:18 < PeterR> Got to run.  Nice chatting with everyone.
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12:22 <@kanzure> none of the above reasons were related to what bluematt or luke-jr said
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12:25 < psztorc> Mircea Popescu has proposed a highly interesting way to (among other things) incentivize/compensate full nodes. http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
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12:39 < tromp> i'm not sure i understand his proposal. would this digest be part of the header? and part of the PoW input? that amounts to radically changing the PoW
12:41 < tromp> if not part of the PoW input, then the pool operator can just add it post-facto and nothing changes
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12:48 < psztorc> It starts very simple: [1] you can prove that you _are_ an up-to-date full node by providing x = H(everything), and then [2] protocol change such that miners need x in order for each block to be valid.
12:48 < psztorc> But then it gets a dramatic upgrade: "everything" is shortened to "a smaller sample of everything", which shuffles after each block is found.
12:49 < psztorc> The shuffling forces each nonce to clear two hurdles, and nodes can help clear the first, and "sell" this.
12:49 < psztorc> So nodes can, theoretically, sell percentage-point-improvements in finding a block.
12:51 < Eliel_> so, effectively that'd mean that validating and mining become potentially separate activities and those who only want to mine might pay for validation services?
12:51 < psztorc> I think that that is true.
12:52 <@kanzure> "nonce-th byte" yea....
12:52 < psztorc> Miners need fully valid 'half blocks' in order to mine; 'half blocks' need to have the entire chain history.
12:53 <@kanzure> not sure why i should expect the nonce-th byte to exist in every previous block. what about small blocks that had little content?
12:54 < zooko> FYI: https://forum.bitcoin.com/ama-ask-me-anything/i-m-zooko-wilcox-ceo-of-the-zcash-company-ask-me-anything-t5413.html
12:54 < psztorc> If I understand him completely (not likely), you concatenated (and wrap) the entire thing.
12:55 < psztorc> There's a little mouseover example, that the people here probably understand better than I.
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12:55 <@kanzure> "This forces a minimum population of nodes to exist in order for mining to even be possible" what? is that true? i think it just means you force the miner to have a lot of parallelism, not a lot of nodes.
12:56 < psztorc> That's basically what I asked him about.
12:57 < psztorc> "Two different ASIC types".
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12:58 < psztorc> Even if you had parallism, though, you can still *improve* your position by asking nodes to help.
12:59 <@kanzure> position?
12:59 < psztorc> Your mining ROI.
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13:01 < psztorc> kanzure: Upon closer inspection, he just wraps it within each block.
13:01 < psztorc> You probably figured that out, although he double-uses "c3" which reduced the clarity of the example a smidge.
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13:06 < zooko> kanzure, oh human encyclopedia: please tell me the URL of gmaxwell's post about "zero-knowledge proofs without moon math"!
13:07 <@kanzure> http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt
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13:26 < psztorc> Low battery -- be back later.
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14:18 < JackH> http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ anyone seen this?
14:18 < fluffypony> JackH: it was already mentioned here, check the logs
14:19 < JackH> oho
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14:39 < Eliel_> Mircea's idea would seriously increase the I/O bandwidth use for even just validating blocks...
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14:39 < Eliel_> you'd have to basically read the whole blockchain to validate any new block.
14:48 < Eliel_> Well, this'd basically just change the PoW algorithm from SHA256 to a proof of blockchain storage algorithm and make block validation take much much longer than it does today.
14:50 < Eliel_> It's intriguing, but I don't like it. Running a full node is resource intensive enough already. No need to blow that to the next dimension.
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14:59 < Luke-Jr> someone takes Mircea seriously? O.o
15:00 < fluffypony> Luke-Jr: Paul Sztorc (!!) did
15:01 < Eliel_> Luke-Jr: Not me, not after this proposal. But then again, I'd have never even looked at it if it wasn't discussed here first :P
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15:02 < Eliel_> Although, I must admit I'm not quite sure if Mircea himself thinks he's being serious or not.
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15:11 < Luke-Jr> Eliel_: it seems much more serious than his usual trolling, IMO. it just doesn't think the idea through far enough.
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15:29 < JackH> he seems quite certain of himself and even writes that he refuses to accept it wont work
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15:29 < JackH> in his universe, his words are absolute - its quite funny to read
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15:50 < psztorc> Too bad it got a veto from Greg.
15:51 < psztorc> JackH: He does that on purpose, to manipulate the type of people who choose to read his blog.
15:51 < psztorc> The secret is that he isn't arrogant at all -- only pretending.
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15:55 < JackH> well, I dont feel offended at all, but his wording is similar to that of a mad man with grand delusions of self
15:56 < JackH> not really the approach I would take to present a BIP, haha
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16:05 < psztorc> Why not?
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16:08 < adlai> if people stopped calling publications "BIPs" unless they followed patches-first-patter-latter, that'd be nice
16:09 < adlai> Luke-Jr: one of the worst curses of Bitcoin is that people take eachother seriously in all the wrong ways and none of the right ones
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16:19 < adlai> what's the plan for long-term handling of the utxo set? i'm aware of bramc's work towards making utxo commitments feasible, but is anybody focusing on ways to either add a cost to utxo spam, or at least incentivise its reduction?
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16:24 < aj> adlai: a plan is described http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/validation-cost-metric/
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16:32 < instagibbs> you can also cap utxo set size
16:33 < instagibbs> jl2012 wrote up one version of it
16:33 < adlai> capping utxo set size sounds a little like introducing a cumulative blockchain cap rather than per-block...
16:34 < instagibbs> it's a cumulative datastructure that requires fast access :/
16:37 < adlai> aj: thank you
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16:59 < Luke-Jr> adlai: SegWit does add such costs (by discounting non-UTXO data)
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16:59 < Luke-Jr> also by not allowing the entire 2 MB to be stuffed with UTXO inflation spam
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17:00 < Luke-Jr> (ie, only 1 MB of it can be UTXO changes)
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17:01 < adlai> wouldn't the segwit softfork only increase the cost of utxo spam if segwit transactions become popular enough to raise the fee market to a degree felt by non-segwit transactions?
17:03 < aj> it increases the cost of utxo spam compared to just raising the blocksize to 2MB
17:03 < Luke-Jr> adlai: that seems probable
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17:04 < Luke-Jr> adlai: most scaling solutions do that, really
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17:04 < Luke-Jr> eg, Lightning reduces the per-legit-tx cost such that spam becomes much more expensive relatively
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17:08 < adlai> i think aj nailed it: this is a reason for segwit-softfork being a qualitatively better scaling "can-kick" than a 2MB hardfork
17:09 < adlai> Luke-Jr: my concern is that expense relative to non-spam use isn't enough, if non-spam use becomes cheaper... you might even spam getting cheaper in absolute terms, if non-spam use doesn't increase to take advantage of low fees
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17:11 < adlai> "absolute terms" being "total bitcoin cost"; this analysis does not account for absolutes beyond...
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17:14 < Luke-Jr> adlai: miners are less incentivised to misbehave mining the spam
17:14 < Luke-Jr> and it is easier for them to detect it
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17:17 < aj> anyone know how big the mempool is at the moment, if you drop all the relay limits to zero?
17:18 < belcher> it depends on stuff like how long your node has been running, there is no "the" mempool
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17:19 < aj> sure; i'm wondering when my mempool will have "caught up"; i'm at ~11MB atm
17:20 < belcher> better for #bitcoin, but you dont catch up, your newly-started node will just store transactions as they arrive, not get historical ones
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17:27 < rusty> belcher: not quite true, there's generally a steady state.  In my experience it's about a week, but that was over a year ago.
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17:49 < bramc> Hey everybody
17:51 < bramc> So I'm *this* close to switching from 'real' mark and sweep of variable size entries leaves to having fixed size individual nodes and making a linked list of unused nodes
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17:53 < bramc> The downside is that it wastes a bit of space in nodes which aren't terminal, and about half the space in nodes which only have something on one side. On the plus side, it wastes less space because blocks as a whole get a lot more full, and it's vastly simpler
17:53 < bramc> something only on one side I mean
17:54 < bramc> Whether it's net more or less cache misses is highly unclear, it depends on the usage pattern
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17:55 < bramc> Anybody have any thoughts? Or even have any idea what I'm babbling about?
17:56  * adlai wishes bramc would publish a "this is what I've been babbling about" already, even if it's not frozen solid yet :)
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17:58 < bramc> The other thing I could do is make intermediate values with stuff only on one side have to get recomputed, to save space at the expense of CPU and complexity. Maybe I should punt and say that I'll do that 'later'
17:59 < bramc> Really skimping on just the last branch would give most of the savings there, and wouldn't be all that complex
18:00 < bramc> adlai: The big comment at the top of https://github.com/bramcohen/MerkleSet/blob/master/merkle_set.py has a reasonable explanation of the data format
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18:02 < adlai> ty bramc
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18:04 < bramc> I'm really liking this single level punt. Then the node values become MIDDLE, ONLY0, ONLY1, TERM0, TERM1, TERMBOTH, and ONLY0_THEN_TERMBOTH and ONLY1_THEN_TERMBOTH
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18:05 < bramc> Which saves most of the space wasted by ONLY0 and ONLY1 at only a modest cost to extra CPU and complexity
18:06 < bramc> And best of all, I can totally punt on it for now because it's a nice separated task to put in the TODO list
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18:12 < bramc> Okay I'm sold. Now I need to break out the machete. Eugh.
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20:10 < bramc> Come to think of it, all ONLY0 and ONLY1 before a TERMBOTH can be skipped all the time, with no special designation
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20:15 < bramc> ONLY0 and ONLY1 still have to be included because there might be more complicated stuff before them and because they occur in branches, but that's a small amount of wasted space
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21:01 < adlai> bramc: what's active_child?
21:01 < bramc> adlai: That's the child which overflows are currently being put into
21:05 < bramc> adlai: It's a simple trick to make it so that the children are mostly filled up without having a complex structure where the parent remembers how much is in different children and constantly tries to juggle them
21:06 < bramc> adlai: When a leaf child gets too big to fit in a single block some of its data is put into the parent's active child as well. This isn't implemented yet though.
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21:10  * adlai will simply have to read the fine source :)
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--- Log closed Tue Feb 02 00:00:21 2016