--- Log opened Wed Feb 03 00:00:22 2016
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09:52 < lmatteis> amiller: wow there's an academic bitcoin conference at the barbados?
09:53 < amiller> lmatteis, yes, for the third year
09:53 < amiller> Financial Crypto is a conference that's been held in the carribbean since 1997
09:53 < lmatteis> not bad the life of academics ;)
09:53 < amiller> paypal was first demoed there back when it was called squarepay
09:53 < amiller> it was originally envisioned as like a data haven
09:54 < amiller> there's a documentary about it i helped get translated into english https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcC0RNsallc
09:54 < lmatteis> ah i see the broader conference is Financial Cryptography
09:55 < amiller> that famous image of nick szabo is from the first FC
09:56 < amiller> they have a lot of papers on evoting and usable cryptography and other stuff
09:56 < amiller> and yeah the bitcoin research workshop that's hosted there is great
09:56 < lmatteis> and there's also a PoS paper :)
09:56 < Aleph0> interesting
09:56 < Aleph0> which PoS paper?
09:57 < Aleph0> bsm1175321: r u around
09:57 < amiller> just look at this amazing web site, hosted from a data haven on anguila island https://ifca.ai/fc97/
09:57 < lmatteis> amiller: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/program.html -- last paper
09:57 < lmatteis> whops Aleph0
09:57 < lmatteis> nice it's still up!
09:57 < amiller> that paper has / will have the honor of being the first peer-reviewed academic paper about proof of stake!
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09:58 < lmatteis> they don't seem to mention most of Vitalk's work, which is kind of weird
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09:58 < lmatteis> such as the Slasher protocol
09:59 < amiller> you can bug iddo about it
09:59 < lmatteis> i guess you can't cite unreliable data sources as an academic ;)
09:59 < amiller> lmatteis, nonsense, of course you can
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10:02 < Aleph0> very dense material.
10:04 < lmatteis> the main conference program has also lots of bitcoin related papers compared to last year http://fc16.ifca.ai/program.html
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10:06 < lmatteis> Aleph0: the writing is also sometimes unclear. for instance they mention the `CoA` acronym without explaining what it is :(
10:06 < lmatteis> is it Certificate of Authenticity
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10:08 < lmatteis> yes it mentions them in section 2 again
10:09 < fluffypony> man 1997 was a goldmine for website design
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10:14 < Aleph0> interesting program. i wish i had time to go.
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10:35 < amiller> is anyone at blockstream actively working on proof-of-work sidechains?
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10:36 < zooko> Good question.
10:36 < amiller> this Proofs of Proofs of Work is directly relevant http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf
10:37 < zooko> They've been doing a ton of other word.
10:37 < zooko> k
10:37 < amiller> it actually is fascinatingly different from the proposals from maaku, myself, everyone else
10:37 < amiller> the key distinction as i understand it is that it is interactive
10:37 < amiller> that is, someone says "here's a sidechains withdrawal proof!"
10:37 < amiller> and if it's bogus, someone else is supposed to say "nope here's evidence that i have a longer blockchain that doesn't have your tx in it!"
10:38 < amiller> so far so good, that's the same as in the sidechains paper and the handful of related forum discussions....
10:38 < amiller> the difference is, the proposal in this paper has like O(log N) back-and-forhts
10:42 < amiller> still, they have a theorem and some pseudocode about which the theorem applies
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11:03 < instagibbs> cool
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11:04 < instagibbs> I don't think much work has been done on that end since the whitepaper.
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11:34 < bramc> Hey everybody
11:38 < bramc> I came up with a bright idea this morning, which is that the rule that ONLY0 and ONLY1 get skipped over in the actual hashing, not just in the data structure
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12:10 < zooko> Dear -wizards: is there anyone who is actually doing live Atomic Cross-Chain Swaps (Tier Nolan Protocol)?
12:10 < zooko> Or, if not Tier Nolan Protocol some other method such as that Ethereum app that embeds the Bitcoin blockchain into Ethereum?
12:10 < zooko> What I want is real users (customers) doing it in real life, or at least a company or effort aimed at giving real users such a tool and teaching them how to do it in real life.
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12:38 < Aleph0> zooko: which ethereum app?
12:39 < Aleph0> there's only been very brief demos.
12:51 < zooko> Aleph0: let's see if I can find it again …
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13:07 < zooko> Aleph0: Finally found it! By re-playing amiller's entire tweet stream from the beginning: https://twitter.com/socrates1024/status/674828766103883776
13:07 < zooko> (Just kidding.)
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13:15 < nickler> zooko: what exactly do you want from ACCS that ShapeShift can't provide? Is it just not having to rely on a third party?
13:16 < nickler> It seems to me that ACCS is hard to get right in practice: you still need a matching mechanism and at least the simple version of ACCS (I haven't looked into Tier Nolan's BIP) appears to be very vulnerable to simple DoS attacks.
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13:19 < zooko> nickler: yes, just that.
13:20 < zooko> nickler: you could imagine a future version of ShapeShift that still does the matching but uses ACCS if both parties have ACCS-capable wallets.
13:20 < zooko> And you could imagine a future future version of ShapeShift and/or OpenBazaar that replaces the centralized matching with some kind of decentralized marketplace.
13:20 < zooko> nickler: Hm, haven't thought carefully about the DoS you mention.
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13:25 < zooko> Here's this delightful thing with which Rusty blew my mind at SB/HK: Lightning Network is a superset of ACCS!
13:26 < kang_> zooko: I hope you know about mercuryex and #bitcoin-plumbers(adlai's project)
13:26 < nickler> the DoS is just to force the other party to wait out the locktime (for which you don't have to lock up your own funds)
13:26 < zooko> nickler: *nod*
13:27 < zooko> kang_: yes, I've heard of Mercury-whatchacallit.
13:29 < kang_> zooko: Also have a look at adlai's project.. It lets you choose between 'if counterparty does not go through the trade, our funds are locked and cannot used in another trade for the duration of timeout' or a 2of3 model with oracles
13:30 < zooko> kang_: URL, please?
13:32 < kang_> zooko: https://github.com/adlai/scalpl
13:32 < zooko> Thanks.
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13:36 < zooko> kang_: huh!
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13:37 < kang_> zooko: It might look like it, but is serious .. talk to adlai
13:37 < zooko> *nod*
13:39 < nickler> wow, this has one of the more interesting commit logs
13:39 < kang_> zooko: I am working on an ACCS related project too but am a noob programmer so will take me a while
13:39 < zooko> What's yours, kang_ ?
13:39 < kang_> zooko: I'll tweet you when I can show something .. Just started coding it
13:40 < zooko> ok
13:40 < zooko> What's your twitter handle?
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14:22 <@kanzure> https://github.com/AdamISZ/ConfidentialTransactionsDoc
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15:30 < adlai> zooko, kang_ , scalpl currently only deals with centralized exchanges... you could say they are its training wheels for when ACCS is possible.
15:30 < kang_> adlai: Why isn't it possible now?
15:31 < adlai> because the code isn't written! and decentralized order matching is still an open problem
15:32 < kang_> adlai: How does coinjoin implement decentralized order matching?
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15:32 < belcher> kang_ it doesnt
15:33 < kang_> belcher: oh!
15:33 < adlai> "coinjoin" is the protocol, like ACCS. joinmarket (the market for coinjoin participation) uses a centralized order advertisement location, and participants use customizable counterparty selection algorithms
15:33 < kang_> adlai: Yes, I meant how do coinjoin implementations do it..
15:34 < kang_> Can it be done using bitmessage?
15:34 < adlai> yes, but very slowly
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15:35 < adlai> nickler: thank you :D
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15:48  * adlai chalks it up to coding alone for too long
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15:59 < rgrant> zooko: does bitsquare.io qualify?  it allows altcoins but is still on testnet.
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23:23 < Taek> POPOW - the concept is enticing. Might help in figuring out how to get multiple different chains to share irreversibility
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 04 00:00:23 2016