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04:48 < Eliel> Anduck: an additional comment on the 3 participant channel thing. I just realized that while it's not possible to move from 2 way channel to a 3 way channel, a 3 way channel can be downgraded to 2 way without closing it. However, it requires the participant leaving the channel to disclose their channel private key to the others, so it requires careful design if it is to work with BIP32 wallets.
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08:18 < bsm1175321> An incremental hash function proposal based on sha-3 (Keccak) https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1028.pdf
08:22 < bsm1175321> maaku: The (my) intended use is to prove to a third party that knows the root hash R=HASH(A,B,C), that the new root hash is R'=HASH(A,C) upon removing a single UTXO B.  This way the third party does not have to hold the entire UTXO set and could be holding only a fraction of it.
08:22 < bsm1175321> (likewise for adding an output)
08:23 < roybadam1> fluffypony: right, but the question is how would you provide incentives to build up the SHA-3 infrastructure in a way that existing miners wouldl support?
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08:26 < roybadam1> a flag day, although not necessarily impossible assuming several years of advance notice, is likely to be problematic for investment in mining infrastructure because otherwise useful mining hardware will be obsoleted overnight
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08:26 < roybadam1> Maybe it's doable - and maybe it's not really worse than halvingdays, but it's not clear we can't do better
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08:29 < bsm1175321> roybadam1: multi-algo coins work by having one target difficulty for each algo.  All you really need to do is have a target difficulty schedule that sends one of the target difficulties to infinity over some time inteval.
08:29 < zooko> bsm1175321: "Instead of working with full trees, if we want to focus on performance, then we need to limit
08:29 < zooko> the tree depth on one or two [6, 7]."
08:29 < zooko> bsm1175321: wat
08:29 < zooko> bsm1175321: I don't understand that incremental-hashing stuff, but I'd advise you to just use a Merkle Tree, like everyone else uses for everything else.
08:30 < zooko> “Merkle Trees go well with everything.”
08:30 < roybadam1> the problem is that the developmejnt cycles for new ASICs are long, and hence it's unlikely that the transition period is going to be very large compared to the hardware development cycle
08:31 < roybadam1> bsm1175321: can you point me to any multi-algo alts? I don't follow altcoins.
08:31 < bsm1175321> zooko: log(n) proofs to achieve what I want to is a substantial overhead.  But I might do it anyway, at least for comparison's sake.  What I haven't figured out is that the tree can be fully rebalanced without having all leaves.
08:32 < zooko> bsm1175321: I don't understand your use case, but I'd be interested. I'm part of the Merkle Tree Huggers Club. ;-)
08:33 < bsm1175321> roybadam1: Myriadcoin http://myriadcoin.org/home for instance
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08:33 < roybadam1> bsm1175321: thanks
08:33 < bsm1175321> zooko: Sharding the blockchain by sharding the UTXO set...
08:34 < bsm1175321> bramc hasn't been on in days and I want to pick his brain on this ;-)
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08:36 < zooko> bsm1175321: the naive application of Merkle Trees is probably already good enough for that, right?
08:36 < zooko> Because log(n) is small even when n is big. :-)
08:37 < Eliel> zooko: incremental hash function is O(1) here.
08:38 < bsm1175321> zooko: If I can convince myself that I know how to rebalance the tree, yes.  However we're talking about adding a log(n) proof to *each* input and *each* output. So we're talking about (# inputs + # outputs)*log(UTXO set size)
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08:39 < bsm1175321> log(UTXO set size) is around 20 I believe.  We're talking nearly a kilobyte of proof *per* input and output.
08:40 < roybadam1> I'll repeat my origingal question about multi-algo, though, on the off chance that soemone who knows the answer is here now.
08:41 < roybadam1> Anyone have a reference to the proposal for using a different PoW for every 10th bitcoin block?
08:41 < zooko> bsm1175321: hm.
08:41 < bsm1175321> zooko: To be clear, these proofs allow anyone to compute the new UTXO set comitment after a particular txn is applied.
08:41 < roybadam1> I gather someone proposed such a thing - I saw a reference on reddit, but no idea who it was
08:42 < zooko> Eliel: I don't understand incremental hash functions.
08:43 < zooko> Eliel: and saying it is O(1) doesn't tell me if it is > or < than 1 KB per input and output for bsm's use.
08:43 < bsm1175321> roybadam1: every 10th block sounds like a dumb idea FWIW.  Switching smoothly to a new hash function is doable.  Just give the new function a low target difficulty and with each retarget, change the ratio between the two functions, such that within a 2016 block window, you expect 1 & 2015 for the first window, 10 & 2006, 20 & 1996, etc, with successive retargets.
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08:46 < bsm1175321> zooko: If you had a (hypothetical) incremental hash function such that R = HASH(A,B,C) where A,B,C are themselves individual hashes (256 bits) then your proof is 2*(hash size) per output.  For N inputs+outputs its (n+1)*(hash size)
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08:46 < bsm1175321> Thus the proof is comparable in size to the txn itself.
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08:50 < zooko> bsm1175321: sorry, I'm still ignorant of your use case. Is it written down somewhere? You said something sharding something UTXO set.
08:50 < bsm1175321> zooko: I'm thinking out loud, really, haven't written it down yet.
08:50 < bsm1175321> Trying to finish my braids paper this weekend and getting distracted by ideas for the next paper after that...
08:50 < zooko> So, could you explain to me about this (hypothetical) incremental hash function?
08:51 < bsm1175321> zooko: sure, incementality is the idea that if you have HASH(data) and you want to add more data, the new hash can be computed *using* the old hash, like HASH(HASH(data),increment) for example.
08:52 < bsm1175321> That way you don't have to re-hash the entire dataset to get HASH(data+increment).
08:53 < bsm1175321> More generally, sharding requires the ability to add and remove from the UTXO set, while only posessing a fraction of it, and prove to everyone you've done so consistently.
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08:57 < bsm1175321> If I can see a transaction and see that it spends the utxo B, and you give me A,C such that the previous block's root hash (I presume everyone has the headers for all blocks) was R=HASH(A,B,C), then I know that the next root hash should be R'=HASH(A,C).
08:57 < zooko> bsm1175321: so, this notion of "incremental hashing" is still kind of confusing to me.
08:58 < zooko> bsm1175321: you're not familiar with Merkle-Damgard Chaining are you?
08:58 < bsm1175321> Sounds familiar, I'll have to jog my memory...
08:58 < zooko> Nevermind.
08:58 < bsm1175321> Ah yes. I know.
08:59 < bsm1175321> I don't think you can use Merkle-Damgard to construct an incremental hash function.
08:59 < zooko> So if you're just going to *add* incremental additions, then it seems like the most naive thing, such as the "HASH(HASH(data),increment)" that you just mentioned is great.
09:00 < zooko> But do you also want to remove elements ? Or what. I don't understand the UTXO use you mentioned next.
09:00 < bsm1175321> One needs to remove also, so composed hashing HASH(HASH(HASH...))) is not so useful.
09:00 < zooko> Is R=HASH(A,B,C) showing that A, B, and C have been spent or that they haven't been spent?
09:01 < bsm1175321> R=HASH(A,B,C) is showing that B is present in the UTXO set.  A is a composite hash of everything in the (sorted) utxo set less than B, and C is a composite hash of everything in the sorted utxo set greater than B.
09:02 < zooko> bsm1175321: ok.
09:04 < bsm1175321> zooko: This paper presents some examples of Incremental Hash Functions (some of which have known collision flaws: forewarning) https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~mihir/papers/inchash.pdf
09:04 < zooko> Thanks!
09:05 < bsm1175321> That's why I got excited by the Keccak one I posted previously...
09:05 < bsm1175321> See Section 1.1 "Standard Constructions Fail" where they talk about Merkle-Damagard.
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09:19 < jl2012> if you can have extra items in header, what would you like to see? I want to add height and median_time_past
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09:23 < bsm1175321> jl2012: UTXO commitment hash ;-)
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09:28 < jl2012> bsm1175321 yes, this should be added somehow
09:28 < jl2012> anyone thinks block_size is useful?
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09:30 < adlai> if it's anything but constant forever, then it makes sense to track it (similar to the difficulty bits)
09:31 < Guest34917> fluffypony uh what about cooko cycles?
09:37 < Guest34917> bsm117532 check the logs. Incremental hash functions for this exact purpose have been discussed before.
09:38 < bsm1175321> Guest34917: probably by me... ;-)
09:38 < Guest34917> Possibly. On my phone and can't check.
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10:01 < bsm1175321> Guest34917: I am not finding much in the logs.  If you know where to look and can provide a pointer, I'd appreciate it.
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10:03 < Guest34917> Sorry on my phone I'll look later
10:03 < bsm1175321> thanks
10:03 < Guest34917> This is maaku btw
10:03  * bsm1175321 wonders what this IRC client is that generates Guest12345...
10:04 < fluffypony> Guest34917: Cuckoo Cycle is very interesting - we're doing a soft implementation of it Monero via PoW-on-connect, will give us a chance to evaluate it
10:04 < Guest34917> He is a regular if quiet person, and a purposefully chosen nick I'm sure
10:05 < fluffypony> *but* we're talking about Bitcoin, where miners are used to ASICs and the like - a switch to commodity hardware might be overly harsh a chane
10:05 < fluffypony> *change
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10:18 < bsm1175321> Moving to a commodity-hardware friendly PoW creates an "external majority" that can easily be used to 51% attack the network.  "My coin is secure as long as no one at a Google datacenter decides to reallocate idle CPU time..."  It also reopens mining by virii and botnets.
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10:20 < zooko> fluffypony: can you point me to docs about PoW-on-connect? Is this to make establishing p2p connections expensive to deter sybil attack on the p2p layer? Very cool.
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10:22 < fluffypony> bsm1175321: yes, which is why we've eschewed it, but making such a change it Bitcoin would be close to impossible as those hierarchies are already established
10:22 < fluffypony> zooko: correct - nothing formal drawn up yet, early days still
10:23 < fluffypony> but if memory serves there's been some discussion of it with respects to Bitcoin, either on the Bitcoin Dev mailing list or on Bitcointalk, I forget where
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15:56 < bramc> Hey everybody
15:56 < bramc> bsm1175321: A merkle root is sort of a random access updatable hash
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16:39 < bsm1175321> bramc: that it is.  Did you see my comments above?
16:42 < bramc> bsm1175321: Did not read closely
16:45 < bsm1175321> bramc: Given the Merkle Set as you've implemented it,let's assume I want to add or remove a UTXO from the set commitment.  What is the minimal amount of info that has to be transmitted to allow a third party to compute the new root without the removed (with the added) element?  (I'm concerned that tree rebalancing might require more than a log(n) Merkle path)
16:46 < bramc> bsm1175321: It's log(n)
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16:46 < bsm1175321> So tree rebalancing isn't going to require me to know more than that?
16:47 < maaku> bsm1175321: you don't need to rebalance a trie
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16:48 < bsm1175321> Hmmmm...oh yeah you're using a Patricia Trie, no?  then how is the root hash computed?
16:49 < maaku> ;later tell zooko our p2p layer has a bunch of different buckets for categorizing peers, and tries to connect to at least one from each category. one category could be "provided high PoW"
16:49 < bramc> maaku: There should be several reserved for each category
16:49 < maaku> i think i got that syntax wrong anyway
16:52 < bramc> Really it should be several different measures of goodness, and the top N from each category should be let in for sure
16:52 < bramc> of each measure I mean
16:53 < maaku> bramc: that's what it is
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18:23 < Eliel_> bramc: what kind of a balancing algorithm are you using for the tree? Is it red-black-tree? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red%E2%80%93black_tree
18:23 < bramc> Eliel_: No it's a patricia trie
18:27 < Eliel_> ah, right, that's got the advantage of not being order dependant while the exact red black tree structure would depend on the insertion/deletion order.
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18:38 < maaku> you can unbalance a patricia trie, but it involves successively harder proof of work...
18:40 < Eliel_> well, it'd take quite some processing power to actually unbalance it enough to make much of a difference.
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18:44 < Eliel_> Plus, wallets could be programmed to help it closer to balance again and that would take much less processing power.
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19:11 < bramc> I'm doing a few extra tricks to make it so that the tree has to be really really unbalanced for it to be a problem
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19:12 < bramc> Implementation tricks, not format tricks. Well there is one format trick: I'm making it so that whenever there are only two things under the current position they both bubble up to the immediate position
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21:44 < bsm1175321> bramc: what I'm missing is a quantitative measure of "unbalancedness".
21:46 < bsm1175321> And given a badly unbalanced tree, how much communication beyond the Merkle path at log(n) is required for an observer to independently compute the new Merkle root, including rebalancing, where the observer does NOT have the entire tree.
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--- Log closed Sun Feb 07 00:00:26 2016