--- Log opened Tue Feb 23 00:00:41 2016
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01:17 < execute> this is probably a stupid question, but what is wrong with BIP20's send parameter? why was that removed on BIP21?
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11:20 < fluffypony> https://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/ecdh/
11:20 < fluffypony> .title
11:21 < yoleaux> ECDH Key-Extraction via Low-Bandwidth Electromagnetic Attacks on PCs
11:22 < fluffypony> they've used that technique to attack RSA and ElGamal, but ECDH was considered safer due to it being faster (ie. the low bandwidth available for the attack is problematic)
11:22 < fluffypony> I wonder if it could be used to lift Bitcoin privkeys
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11:28 < jcorgan> heh, SDR wins again
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11:30 < jcorgan> they don't mention it much in the paper but that is an Ettus Research/National Instruments USRP N200 and the software on the laptop looks like baudline
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11:39 < TD-Linux> wow that's really high SNR
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11:44 < TD-Linux> it's not immediately obvious why the signal was FM modulated on the carrier (presumably a switching regulator)
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11:52 < jcorgan> assuming varying power draw causes switching regulator to vary frequency or duty cycle
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13:32 < TD-Linux> most regulators are fixed frequency and variable duty cycle.
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14:22 < bsm1175321> But what does that mean for the Federal Reserve?
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14:48 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_unclonable_function
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22:00 < Lightsword> hi, wanted to get some more comments on this https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/340/files
22:03 < bsm117532> Abstract sounds nonsensical.
22:03 < Lightsword> yeah, I should probably reword that
22:04 < aj> Lightsword: if you had difficulty increased by holding back ntime, couldn't you just fork the chain prior to the artificial difficulty increase? you'd have a longer chain in three weeks' time
22:04 < bsm117532> What's the point? Should be stated in the abstract.
22:04 < Lightsword> bsm117532, oh I thought that goes under Motivation
22:05 < bsm117532> You've got a lot of very touch terms: "hard fork", "kill off", "lock in", "permanently disable"
22:05 < bsm117532> And I'm still trying to figure out what you want to accomplish.
22:05 < aj> Lightsword: if you keep merge mining after the first forced fake difficulty increase, merge-mined blocks are going to become very hard to find, but maybe that's okay i guess (4x difficulty means every block is 4x work, so you only need 1/4 (ish) of them...)
22:06 < Lightsword> aj, I’m not sure on the exact parameters but the idea would be to over the year to increase the difficulty to make that chain have a lot more proof of work
22:07 < bsm117532> Lightsword: I don't unerstand the first sentence of your motivation.  Why does it require a headers change?
22:07 < Lightsword> bsm117532, the goal is to do a hard fork that can’t be normally merged mined while ensuring there can’t be two viable chains
22:08 < Lightsword> bsm117532, specifically this “There are serious issues with pooled mining such as block withhold attacks that can only be fixed by making major changes to the headers format.”
22:08 < bsm117532> Yes that's the first sentence.  Can you expound?  I don't understand.
22:09 < Lightsword> bsm117532, basically you need a mask of sorts that can be kept secret from the miners by the pool in order to fix block witholding, and there’s no way to merge mine that with the existing headers format
22:10 < Lightsword> that way the miners can’t know if a share would equal a block
22:10 < aj> Lightsword: i think if you have two chains, each with X hashpower, but one chain has 4x the difficulty of the other, then the one with higher difficulty will only have about 60% of the work of the easier chain. (for every 4x difficulty block you find, there'll also be two 1x difficulty and one 2x difficulty, for 1.75x the work). should asymptotically approach twice the work as the difficulty factor inc
22:11 < aj> reases i think
22:12 < Lightsword> aj, maybe starting the timewarp off slowly at the beginning then increasing it over time would be best
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22:13 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Could you start your BIP by stating concisely what the problem is, and what your proposed solution is?  This still isn't clear to me.
22:13 < aj> Lightsword: i wonder if an informational BIP about approaches to obsoleting the old chain when doing a hard fork would be better
22:13 < bsm117532> Also, generally, for a BIP to get any attention it needs to have code associated with it, demonstrating the relevant feature.
22:14 < aj> Lightsword: ie, these are the pros and the cons for each approach; rather than multiple "let's do it this way" bips, with one accepted and the others rejected
22:16 < Lightsword> bsm117532, what part in particular do you think needs to be clarified, the problem I’m trying to solve is doing a non-merge minable hard fork while safely killing the previous chain(so that unupgraded clients can’t be defrauded)?
22:16 < bsm117532> Define "killing the previous chain".
22:16 < Lightsword> I’m basically extending luke’s proposal here https://github.com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-mmhf/bip-mmhf.mediawiki
22:16 < bsm117532> How can anything be "non-merge-mineable"?
22:17 < aj> bsm117532: making it so anyone attempting to follow the old chain never sees any transactions with more than a couple of confirmations
22:17 < maaku> You need to motivate killing the old chain
22:17 < Lightsword> bsm117532, in particular there’s no way to implement a secret mask for the block withold fix that can be merge mined
22:17 < bsm117532> Ok that's fine but it needs to be clarified in your draft.
22:17 < maaku> If the goal is efficient merged mining, segwit nonce can do that
22:18 < Lightsword> maaku, the goal of the merge mine is to prevent an increase in currency supply by creating two chains
22:19 < bsm117532> Yeah I have a very different solution to block withholding attacks, maybe I'm not the best to comment on this...I need to understand your proposed solution to block withholding attacks, which seems to be implicit?  What's this other solution?  Is it specific to the merge-mined coin?
22:20 < bsm117532> Lightsword: "maaku, the goal of the merge mine is to prevent an increase in currency supply by creating two chains"  this does not make sense to me.  Merge mining does not create two chains, nor an increase in currency supply.
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22:20 < Lightsword> bsm117532, it isn’t possible to fix block witholding without a hard fork right?
22:20 < Lightsword> bsm117532, yes, the merge mining is intended to disable the other chain so it can’t be used
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22:20 < bsm117532> Lightsword: no comment on the hard fork question.  My solution is too far out to decide.  But I *think* I can see how to do it with a soft fork.
22:21 < Lightsword> in the first hard fork stage
22:21 < Lightsword> bsm117532, oh, if it can be done with a soft fork that BIP is pointless then :P
22:21 < Lightsword> well mostly at least
22:22 < bsm117532> Well, following the mechanism for segwit, any extension-block or similar proposal could extend block size via a soft fork.
22:22 < bsm117532> It's asthetically ugly, but it works.
22:23 < Lightsword> bsm117532, oh, I thought you had a solution to block withholding that could be implemented as a soft fork
22:24 < aj> bsm117532: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012441.html was the same approach i thought of for soft-forking block withholding, but it doesn't work :(
22:24 < bsm117532> Yes.  New addresses (a la segwit) specify that the verification data is in the extension block.  No one talks about it because it's so ugly but it works.
22:24 < Lightsword> in order to prevent block witholding you need to make a change that prevents a miner of knowing if a particular share would result in a block
22:25 < Luke-Jr> [06:17:54] <maaku> If the goal is efficient merged mining, segwit nonce can do that <-- not really
22:25 < Lightsword> ie the blinded hash
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22:26 < bsm117532> Lightsword: or change the reward structure to calculate rewards after everyone has seen all blocks.
22:27 < Lightsword> bsm117532, how would that help?
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22:27 < bsm117532> Withholding works because of the competition that one block or the other "wins".
22:28 < bsm117532> If there was a 50/50 split between simultaneously released blocks, and a penalty for delayed blocks, this fixes the incentive problem.
22:28 < Lightsword> bsm117532, I think we’re talking about different things, I’m talking about witholding block finding shares from pools
22:28 < Lightsword> not selfish mining
22:29 < Lightsword> block withhold is where the miner deletes the block finding share instead of sending it to the pool in order to hurt the pool
22:29 < bsm117532> Doesn't really matter actually.
22:29 < Lightsword> in order to do that they have to know if the share will result in the pool finding a block
22:29 < Lightsword> that’s why you need a blind or secret that only the pool knows
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22:29 < bsm117532> This is the idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fst1IK_mrng&feature=youtu.be&t=8258
22:30 < bsm117532> Lightsword: sounds like you know more about pool operation than I do.  Would be happy to hear your comments on the talk.
22:30 < bsm117532> Maybe I'm missing something there.
22:30 < Lightsword> oh, that has nothing to do with the block witholding I’m talking about
22:30 < Lightsword> are you familiar with how stratum shares work?
22:31 < bsm117532> Yes.
22:31 < bsm117532> It very much has to do with block withholding.
22:31 < bsm117532> But explain...
22:31 < Lightsword> that talk is in regards to orphan rates/block races not block withholding
22:32 < Lightsword> so most stratum servers never result in a block, they are used for determining the payout a miner will receive from the pool
22:32 < bsm117532> No...the graph structure gives information about block withholding.
22:33 < Lightsword> they have an arbitrary difficulty below network difficulty used to calculate how much the pool will pay out
22:33 < Lightsword> so the miner will submit any shares to the pool that are above the stratum difficulty(including ones above network difficulty)
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22:33 < Lightsword> now only those above network difficulty will result in the pool finding a block
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22:35 < Lightsword> so in order to do a block withold attack as a miner, you connect to a pool and only submit shares above stratum difficulty but below network difficulty, this means as far as the pool is concerned you never find a block, however you are still paid by the pool regardless because you are submitting stratum shares which the pool credits to your account
22:35 < bsm117532> This is a problem of stratum server logic, not bitcoin.
22:36 < bsm117532> Bitcoin can't solve that on behalf of stratum servers...
22:36 < Lightsword> pools have shareloggers that credit all shares above stratum difficulty equally, so witholding a block finding share doesn’t really hurt the miner if the pool is a PPS pool
22:36 < Lightsword> bsm117532, actually this can’t be solved without a change to bitcoin itself
22:37 < Lightsword> the miner will always know ahead of time if the share they find will generate a block, because they can just calculate the difficulty of that share
22:38 < Lightsword> in order to fix this a blind is needed to so that the pool can have a “secret” that the miner doesn’t know
22:38 < Lightsword> the problem is there the block header format has to be changed in order to implement a blind
22:38 < bsm117532> Lightsword: I don't think you've adequately explained WHY that is the case in your draft. (I suspect it's true)
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22:39 < bsm117532> And again code speaks louder than words.
22:39 < bsm117532> Without code your BIP will be ignored.
22:39 < Lightsword> bsm117532, I mean, do you think it’s neccesary for me to go into detailed background on how a block withold attack works?
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22:39 < bsm117532> Yes.
22:39 < bsm117532> This is not common knowledge.
22:40 < bsm117532> And even if it were, devs are not miners are not pools, and they don't necessarily know each other's issues.
22:40 < Lightsword> ok, I’m kind of assuming it was….it’s comes up on google at the top
22:40 < Lightsword> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/1338/how-is-block-solution-withholding-a-threat-to-mining-pools
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22:41 < Lightsword> anyways the BIP doesn’t really have anything to do with the block withold fix directly so much as how to safely make headers format change that could fix block witholding
22:41 < bsm117532> It's always best to assume you have to explain everything to your audience.  Make a logical argument starting from very basic assumptions, not stackexchange posts.  Carry through a logical argument that doesn't require reference to external literature/sites.
22:42 < Lightsword> there are other format changes my proposal applies to
22:42 < bsm117532> Yeah I could spend days chasing down links, but you will get a lot further by explaining it an understandable way without making me chase down those links.  ;-0
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22:43 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Put the research work on yourself, not the reader.
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22:45 < Lightsword> bsm117532, I mean that’s technically only one of a number of reasons for my BIP vs luke’s regular merge mine hard fork, I mentioned it only because it’s the most obvious one
22:46 < Lightsword> the actual fix for block withholding would be separate, my BIP is just describing a way to go about actually activating the hard fork
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22:47 < bsm117532> Lightsword: you've not provided enough background for the casual reader to understand.  We all have different backgrounds/biases etc.  Even after talking to you on IRC, I can only guess at what you're getting at.
22:48 < bsm117532> I think you're saying that miners who satisfy the bitcoin target can screw over the pool.  And you want bitcoin to enforce not screwing over the pool.
22:48 < Lightsword> bsm117532, basically I want bitcoin to make a change so that pools can prevent themselves from being screwed over by their miners
22:48 < bsm117532> My braids proposal is a way of having a more advanced merge-mining, possibly as a soft fork.  Anyway needs more work.
22:51 < Lightsword> bsm117532, I think you are still missing the point, the reason for the merge mine is just to have a method to disable the previous fork, it’s specifically done as a hard fork to force clients to upgrade so that the header format change can then be triggered later
22:51 < bsm117532> Lightsword: If a miner can refuse to pass a winning block to the pool, then that's a serious flaw in the pool design, and why should bitcoin fix it for them?
22:52 < Lightsword> bsm117532, because it’s impossible to fix it without changing the header format with a hard fork
22:52 < bsm117532> I'm clearly missing the point.  I don't understand "previous fork".  Are you talking about a bitcoin fork or a share-chain fork?  Or something else?
22:52 < bsm117532> Saying "header" doesn't help me understand.
22:55 < bsm117532> I'd guess that pools hand miners a hash to work on, but not the mempool of transactions.  So miners can't take a successful bitcoin hash and build a corresponding block.
22:56 < Lightsword> bsm117532, yeah, stratum is an overlay protocol that gives them enough information to try and create a block
22:56 < bsm117532> So I don't understand how a miner can pass a wining block bypassing the pool.
22:56 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Okay, then one point is to explain how a miner can create a winning block from the information from stratrum.
22:56 < Lightsword> they can’t steal the block for themselves, they can however just delete that winning block and never inform the pool
22:57 < bsm117532> I don't understand why they would do that...
22:57 < Lightsword> to screw over a pool
22:57 < Lightsword> competitor for instance
22:57 < bsm117532> They're only hurting themselves.
22:57 < Lightsword> there are a lot of pay per share pools where they wouldn’t hurt themselves at all
22:57 < Lightsword> btcchina f2pool antpool
22:58 < bsm117532> But that competitor could have allocated those mining resources toward *actually* winning BTC.  How is your strategy better?
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22:58 < Lightsword> because it they get the same profit but kill their competitor
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22:58 < Lightsword> pool pays the same amount for every share regardless of if the share would find a block
22:58 < bsm117532> They don't get the same profit.  They've allocated x% toward killing their competitor, and that's x% profit they're not making.  It should be a wash.
22:58 < Lightsword> dropping a single share doesn’t make any meaningful difference
22:59 < Lightsword> if the pool payout out for every share they only lose the share they choose not to submit
22:59 < Lightsword> which is basically nothing
22:59 < Lightsword> since miners find shares every few seconds
22:59 < bsm117532> Lightsword: So you need to clearly demonstrate the point you're trying to make.
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23:00 < bsm117532> e.g. winning a share and trashing it.
23:00 < Lightsword> normally when a miner finds a share they simply upload it to the pool
23:00 < Lightsword> the miner knows if the share would result in a block being found
23:01 < Lightsword> a miner can choose not to submit the share if they want to
23:01 < Lightsword> there’s nothing stopping them
23:01 < Lightsword> for pools with a pay per share payment model each individual share is not really worth anything
23:01 < Lightsword> to the miner
23:01 < bsm117532> But why would they do that?  They're decreasing the profit of the pool, and decreasing their own profit.
23:01 < Lightsword> but it’s worth a whole block to the pool
23:02 < Lightsword> again, that depends on the payout method the pool uses
23:02 < bsm117532> BTW I suspect you're talking about this: http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/12/03/the-miners-dilemma/
23:02 < Lightsword> pay per share pools don’t pay out any more or less if they find a block or not
23:02 < Lightsword> PPLNS pools do
23:02 < bsm117532> Ok, that distinction needs to be made, clarified, and explained.
23:03 < bsm117532> And code needs to accompany your BIP to demonstrate the change you want to make.
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23:04 < Lightsword> yeah, that is the type of attack I am talking about
23:04 < smooth> bsm117532> But why would they do that?  They're decreasing the profit of the pool, and decreasing their own profit <= the reason is that even without PPS the effect on the miner's own profit may be negligible
23:04 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Ok, can you summarize the content of that blog in a paragraph to introduce your BIP?
23:05 < Lightsword> bsm117532, the BIP isn’t actually presenting a fix for block witholding though….it’s presenting a way to deploy a fix
23:05 < bsm117532> Lightsword: then it needs a lot more work.  ;-)
23:06 < bsm117532> Also, code.
23:06 < bsm117532> BIPs should always accompany a PR or code to demonstrate the idea.
23:06 < Lightsword> well it’s not something I would want to try and code before there is a discussion on it since it’s reasonably complex
23:06 < bsm117532> Ok, so have the discussion.  This a reasonable place to do so, though #bitcoin-dev might be better.
23:07 < bsm117532> Sorry I couldn't help further, I don't understand the subtleties.
23:07 < Lightsword> yeah, I guess it’s one of those things you have to be somewhat familiar with how pools work to understand
23:08 < bsm117532> Yes, but a BIP shouldn't assume that.
23:08 < bsm117532> It helps your argument to explain it.  :-)
23:08 < smooth> the question of whether it even should be fixed is also interesting
23:09 < Lightsword> if I was presenting a BIP with an actual fix I might agree but I’m only presenting a deployment method that could be used by a potential hard fork to fix it
23:09 < Lightsword> smooth, true, there is an argument to be made there
23:10 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Well you need to clearly state the problem, clearly state the parameters of a hypothetical solution for which your deployment method works, and then describe the method.  Anything can be done with a hard fork.  This is not news.
23:11 < Lightsword> I’m not sure what I’m missing though, the problem is “There is a high risk of there being two viable chains if we don't have a way to permanently disable the original chain.” in a hard fork
23:12 < bsm117532> Define "chain".  Are we talking about Bitcoin's blockchain?  (sorry I've been buried in p2pool for a while so have 2 chains in mind)
23:12 < smooth> again there is an interesting question whether that should be fixed
23:12 < Lightsword> bsm117532, yes bitcoin’s blockchain
23:13 < bsm117532> Ok I'm beginning to agree with smooth.  Explain why this needs to be fixed?
23:13 < smooth> i was commenting on two different questions fwiw
23:14 < Lightsword> well, one argument would be that since a large portion of the network is private farms, you wouldn’t want them to be able to attack smaller private pools
23:14 < bsm117532> Ok.  Everyone, explain yourselves.  ;-P
23:14 < Lightsword> bsm117532, but even ignoring the block witholding thing entirely then there can be other reasions for making a headers format change
23:15 < smooth> shuffling of deck chairs comes to mind
23:15 < bsm117532> Lightsword: I don't understand the mechanism by which a "private farm" attacks a smaller "private pool" nor the distinction between "farm" and "pool" nor the significance of "private"....
23:15 < Lightsword> …
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23:16 < Lightsword> maybe start with a basic overview of how pooled mining works https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pooled_mining
23:17 < Lightsword> by private farm I mean one controled by a single group, with a private pool being a pool not open to the public
23:17 < bsm117532> Lightsword: I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm trying to help you improve your idea, FWIW.
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23:18 < bsm117532> Bitcoin is based in proofs.  A farm or pool generally is not based on proofs but on trust.  And well...you get what you ...trust...I guess.
23:18 < Lightsword> pool is based on proofs
23:18 < bsm117532> But apparently there's a way to defaud it that can only be changed by changing bitcoin.  This needs to be clarified.  You didn't explain it.
23:19 < bsm117532> Lightsword: The only pool based on proofs that I know of is p2pool. So you'll have to explain.
23:19 < Lightsword> all pools use share validation
23:20 < Lightsword> they just dont’ have a sharechain
23:20 < Lightsword> they have a share database
23:20 < bsm117532> If you're trusting some random server to calculate your share... well...
23:20 < bsm117532> Don't really care the details, there are no proofs.  The only way you get proofs is a sharechain.
23:21 < Lightsword> well….you can double check to make sure they are crediting the shares properly, since you are submitting the shares
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23:21 < Lightsword> on the other hand it is possible for pools to defraud miners, but that’s nothing new
23:21 < Lightsword> most major pools have repuations at stake
23:21 < Lightsword> and all miners would leave if they were discovered to be defrauding miners
23:22 < bsm117532> So then, if you're asking bitcoin to add something that doesn't actually fix the problem (because pools can still defraud miners) then you're barking up the wrong tree.
23:23 < bsm117532> I gather your idea is a method to discover fraud, not a method to prevent it.  no?
23:23 < Lightsword> no, by using a blind you could in theory entirely prevent block witholding
23:23 < Lightsword> if a miner doesn’t know which share would generate a block they can’t withhold it
23:24 < bsm117532> Okay, you haven't adequately explained that.
23:24 < bsm117532> 2 hours later and I'm still not sure what you're after.  So, you have some work to do.  ;-)  Explain the problem, explain the solution, point to some code that demonstrates the solution, those are the bare minimum requirements.  Then follows a lot of debate...
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23:26 < bsm117532> Code is very, very important.  If you can't be bothered to code it up yourself, why do you expect that someone else would?  One always encounters details while coding that are important...
23:29 < Lightsword> uh, because we’re looking at various theoretical ways of doing hard forks that would make them safer, and something like what I’m proposing is reasonably complex to implement(but would likely be implemented as part of other planned hard-fork work)
23:29 < Lightsword> if it is supported by other developers
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23:32 < bsm117532> Still requires code, most importantly of all.  You can't expect others to do work for you, and the experts are already coding and have their own opinions.
23:32 < bsm117532> If what you're talking about is a safer way to do hard forks, then divorce it from the specific problem you've discussed so far, and concentrate on explaining that problem, and its solution.
23:33 < Lightsword> bsm117532, that’s what I’ve been trying to do all along….
23:33 < bsm117532> Ok, then forget about the shares and pool?
23:33 < bsm117532> I got lost trying to understand how centralized pools work.
23:34 < bsm117532> It should be explainable without that.
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23:34 < Lightsword> yeah, that really has nothing to do with my BIP proposal, the block withhold issue is just an example of why one would want to roll out a non-merge mine compatible hard fork
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23:35 < Lightsword> look under page 9 here http://www.strateman.ninja/roundtable-tech.pdf for the different fork types
23:35 < Lightsword> basically my idea is to stage a “soft HF” before a “header HF”
23:35 < bsm117532> Lightsword: FWIW there's a tremendous amount of disagreement on the contents of that talk.
23:36 < Lightsword> I know…I was there
23:36 < bsm117532> Lightsword: Ok then frame it that way an divorce it from pools?  There's nothing bitcoin can do about the operation of centralized pools.  They may operate one way today but it will be different tomorrow.
23:37 < Lightsword> bsm117532, I literally only mention pools once in it as an example of why one would want to do that type of hard fork
23:37 < bsm117532> Ok Lightsword I'm headed to bed...good luck, I hope I was helpful!  (And I still don't understand)
23:37 < Lightsword> not too much but ok :P
23:38 < bsm117532> hah I tried :-P
23:38 < Lightsword> thanks for trying at least
23:39 < bsm117532> no prob.  good luck!
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 24 00:00:03 2016