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01:21 < adlai> Taek: i think you may be confusing software regulation with automobile regulation
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01:22  * adlai is also in favor of regulating high-speed multiton killing machines, but this only incidentally involves checking which software they're running
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06:05 < Taek> adlai: yeah, that's a good point. It's not software regulation I want. It's regulation of monetary services like blockchain.info, like shadowcash. It's cell phone baseband and operating systems.
06:06 < Taek> I guess shadowcash doesn't make sense either. It's a protocol.
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06:19 < Luke-Jr> Taek: you want baseband and OSs regulated?
06:20 < Taek> Luke-Jr: better than having 90% of the population using phones that have remote code execution vulnerabilities, imho
06:21 < Luke-Jr> Taek: not really IMO
06:21 < Luke-Jr> unless the regulations allow private use of any OS
06:22 < Taek> of course. If you want to wipe your phone and install whatever, be my guest. But in the process of doing so there should be warnings that you're leaving the realm of certified code
06:23 < Luke-Jr> k
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06:29 < Taek> but yeah, slippery slope. Especially if the regulator is not intimate with the industry
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06:50 < Taek> so, one thing OI
06:50 < Taek> *One thing I've been thinking about a lot more seriously is the ability to run multiple sets of consensus code on the same blockchain
06:50 < Taek> the constants for the blockchain itself would still need to be set, so you wouldn't avoid debates like the block size debate
06:51 < Taek> but if you had multiple chains, ways to one-way-peg or atomic-swap between them, you could hardfork a lot more easily
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06:51 < Taek> fix things like the multisig bug, and introduce new transaction types or signature schemes, or other features that would require a hardfork
06:52 < Taek> and you wouldn't need to do so much backbending to get stuff through with softforks when they really should be hardforks
06:52 < Taek> things like fixing malleability
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06:54 < Taek> and you can even introduce things like inflation
06:54 < Taek> you'd accomplish this by having each transaction prefix itself with a code that specifies which set of consensus rules to use
06:55 < Taek> to change the consensus rules, you just introduce a new code. That new code gets a fresh utxo set, meaning everyone who doesn't upgrade doesn't need to worry
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06:55 < Taek> blocks are valid so long as the POW matches, and all the data is there
06:56 < Taek> if a transaction is invalid for its particular consensus rules, you just ignore it, instead of making the whole block invalid
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06:56 < Taek> which means clients only need to validate a portion of the chain, and don't need to be aware of the consensus rules of every utxo set in order to be confident in their own balances
06:56 < Taek> though they do still need to download the whole chain
06:56 < Taek> this breaks SPV
06:57 < Taek> but, if there are transaction types which have speedlimits, such as 1 per block and 16kb max, SPV becomes unimportant
06:57 < Taek> you validate the headers of the master chain, and then download the 16kb you care about
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06:58 < Taek> and then things like phones can actually be full validating nodes, except for the fact that they aren't downloading the whole blocks. So they are SPV for knowing that a block exists in full, but not for knowing that transactions are valid
06:58 -!- Bitcoin is now known as BitcoinErrorLog
06:59 < Taek> I think the major thing remaining here is figuring out how to get the utxo sets to be fully interoperable, though I feel like that doesn't need to be a part of the consensus code
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06:59 < Taek> if you are running multiple, and have payment channels on each, you can reasonably do decentralized trading for coins between chains
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07:00 < BitcoinErrorLog> Taek i was reading your comments via the Slack channel
07:00 < BitcoinErrorLog> about having a compatible ledger
07:00 < BitcoinErrorLog> but
07:00 < BitcoinErrorLog> isnt that just wanting to put Bitcoin in Bitcoin?
07:01 < BitcoinErrorLog> as in, what happens when you need to update the main protocol?
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07:02 < BitcoinErrorLog> my .02
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07:21 < Taek> well, like I said there are some core things that you can't make flexible. Namely, blocksize, POW function, any timestamp rules,  blocktime, and how headers + top-level transactions are composed
07:22 < instagibbs> would miners be in charge of validating all the consensus rules of each system?
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07:22 < instagibbs> if not, you're essentially describing embedded consensus
07:24 < Taek> miners would be in charge of knowing that all of the data existed. but they wouldn't need to run any validation code on that data
07:24 < Taek> is embedded consensus formally documented somewhere?
07:26 < moli> Taek: satoshi wrote it?
07:26 < instagibbs> oh yeah, broken spv, that's embedded consensus
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07:27 < instagibbs> Taek, ehh not really that I know of. It's Peter Todd's ideas, strewn about
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07:27 < instagibbs> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-February/004297.html
07:28 < Taek> huh: http://symbiont.io/uncategorized/what-is-embedded-consensus/
07:28 < instagibbs> yeah saw that, no idea who they are
07:28 < instagibbs> but it appears to be a similar idea
07:29 < Taek> "Symbiont’s proprietary Smart Securities™ technology..." heh. Almost got excited for a minute
07:29 < moli> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03890.html
07:29 < instagibbs> the treechains idea is another layer on top of that idea
07:29 < instagibbs> since you won't be able to ensure everyone validates everything anyways
07:30 < instagibbs> missing data is a problem though
07:30 < Taek> yeah it's similar. The thing I don't like about treechains though is that there's a mechanic to reorg some chains without reorging all of them
07:30 < Taek> and datawitholding
07:30 < instagibbs> yeah it's next-level issues
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08:28 < bsm1175321> Is there a comprehensive writeup of treechains somewhere?  I was under the impression that it didn't work or needed some yet-unknown development to make it work.
08:29 < instagibbs> it doesn't work right now :P
08:29 < bsm1175321> Taek: I've had that idea too -- regarding different sets of consensus rules.  I think it makes an awful lot of sense.
08:30 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, iirc the incentives are basically a giant question mark
08:30 < bsm1175321> Taek: One then needs ways to make coins fungible between different sets of consensus rules.  I think of this as a solution to the merged mining problem.
08:31 < bsm1175321> The merged mining problem is that in order to have multiple assets (including sidechains) you need everyone to mine everything, or hashpower can be dumped onto sidechains to destroy them.  What you describe (Taek) is a mechanism to get everyone to merge-mine everything.
08:31 < instagibbs> miners are not required to create a "valid" chain
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08:32 < instagibbs> people follow the longest PoW chain(within some bounds like blocksize, etc) then validate themselves
08:32 < instagibbs> so double-spends included are simply ignored, etc
08:35 < bsm1175321> instagibbs: then the chain is full of trash...I do not think double-spends should be recorded for all time.
08:35 < instagibbs> it's trash to you, but perhaps not to others?
08:36 < bsm1175321> Also, a node doesn't actually know if there is consensus about the UTXO state.  It could have parsed something differently than other nodes, and wouldn't know.
08:36 < instagibbs> well, double-spends are probably trash no matter people's preferences, but then you have to force miners to validate everything again
08:36 < bsm1175321> I do think of miners as validation agents, committing their work to their validation task.
08:36 < instagibbs> so now your stupid protocol centralizes my nice simple one :P
08:37 < instagibbs> (hypothetical)
08:37 < kanzure> bsm1175321: for treechain stuff, see:
08:37 < kanzure> http://blog.greenaddress.it/2014/06/13/sidechains-treechains-the-tldr/
08:37 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-March/004797.html
08:37 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-April/005284.html
08:37 < kanzure> https://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb104-tree-chains-with-peter-todd/
08:37 < instagibbs> And if miners disagree on a specific sub protocol, you get chain splits again
08:37 < kanzure> https://github.com/petertodd/tree-chains-paper
08:37 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3u1m36/why_arent_we_as_a_community_talking_about/cxbamhn
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08:40 < bsm1175321> FWIW I've been thinking an awful lot about sharding.  Don't know how much it overlaps with petertodd's treechains but it relies on making the UTXO set into a Merkle tree, and having nodes commit to storing a branch of it.  So each node has a truncated Merkle tree.
08:40 < bsm1175321> Storage commitments are incentivized by passing proofs-of-storage, which get added to transactions.
08:41 < kanzure> re: sharding,
08:41 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/
08:41 < kanzure> https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf
08:41 < bsm1175321> Then there's logic about how to track the tree at the point you truncated the Merkle tree.
08:42 < bsm1175321> From what I can see, my logic works, and results in O(log(n)) scaling.  (The proofs you're passing around about presence of outputs in the UTXO set grow as log(n))
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08:42 < bsm1175321> I guess I need to re-read all these references.  I've read almost all of them before...
08:44 < Taek> bsm1175321: chain is very unlikely to be full of trash. Though miners are not required to validate transactions before the throw them into the chain, there are likely transaction fees associated, and understanding those fees means doing at least after-the-fact validation of the chain. It also means they are incentivized to not supply double-spends, as that cuts into fee revenue
08:45 < bsm1175321> I guess you can have two categories of solutions: (1) arrange for all UTXO's spent by a given transaction to be available on some node somewhere (Vitalik et al's solution above) or (2) collect proofs from other nodes about presence of the UTXO's you can't see in the most recent global UTXO set commitment.
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08:47 < bsm1175321> Taek: Okay so you're proposing a different incentive mechanism there, which I haven't seen before.
08:49 < bsm1175321> Taek: that's also the approach taken by the "inclusive blockchain" paper, which they call a "direct revelation mechanism". http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~avivz/pubs/15/inclusive_btc.pdf
08:49 < bsm1175321> "The provision of this additional information amounts to a “direct revelation mechanism”: Instead of instructing nodes to select the chain they extend, we simply ask them to report all possible choices, and other nodes can simulate their choice, just as they would have made it (the term direct revelation is borrowed from economics where it is widely used in mechanism design [10])."
08:51 < kanzure> i don't see how you get from taek's last message to that "direct revelation mechanism"
08:52 < bsm1175321> kanzure: He's proposing to keep all possible choices including un-validated chains.  it's the same thing.
08:52 < kanzure> in his last message? or in a prior message? in his last message he is simply a current fact for the blockchain- miners are foregoing the fees from double spends, because otherwise their blocks will be invalid.
08:54 < bsm1175321> Prior message.  I've got like 3 overlapping conversations in my head now, and am confusing myself...  I'm going to wander off now...
08:54 < kanzure> earlier prior message makes more sense, nevermind
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09:05 < kanzure> hmm so why are we not using PoW for the peer protocol? e.g. for every rpc request, include some small PoW that some work is being done to commit to the transmitted data?
09:05 < helo> because we want consensus to be as fast as possible, right?
09:05 < kanzure> if transaction validation has a cost, then it seems reasonable to bottleneck that cost by first evaluating whether there is a PoW attached to it, to first determine whether to bother to do a utxo lookup or do the validation work (especially for unconfirmed stuffs)
09:06 < kanzure> well, i am thinking about the silly claim that non-mining relay nodes are useless. they aren't. and attaching PoW to rpc actions might do something interesting.
09:06 < bsm1175321> kanzure: I think we should.  We're explicitly enabling outsourcing of mining by not doing so, and I don't think that's something a "decentralized" coin should do.
09:06 < bsm1175321> hashcash all the things.
09:08 < bsm1175321> The braided/sharded coin proposal I'm slowly building will have not have a free relay layer.  Every tx will be mined, and I'm thinking inter-node rpc calls should be mined too.
09:09 < kanzure> what would it mean to "mine" an "inter-node rpc call"?
09:09 < Guest24373> Do you mean RPC or p2p messages?
09:09 < bsm1175321> I mean p2p messages.
09:10 < bsm1175321> Not 100% sure that makes sense...
09:10 < kanzure> as in, "look! they are there in the merkle tree!"  ?
09:10 < kanzure> also: is it the p2p request that should have a PoW, or the response, or both?
09:11 < instagibbs> adding PoW to things without directly "mining" it seems like going backwards
09:12 < helo> increasing the cost for those that are using the network's resources, so they will only do it if it is worth the cost
09:12 < helo> difficulty retargets will be hard to implement, no?
09:13 < kanzure> seems somewhat passive aggressive "you can't figure out an incentive for me to give you this data, so instead i am going to make you do proof-of-burn PoW stuff". (the reason why demanding payment for data doesn't work is that there will always be people freely giving away the data)
09:15 < helo> it's just a fee paid to external entities, right? "buy your BFL p2p request asic now!"
09:16 < bsm1175321> kanzure: The incentive model I have now for a sharded coin would have nodes asking each other for proofs-of-inclusion in the UTXO set.  The response would contain a commitment (also in the same data structure as the UTXO Merkle tree) that the requestee is holding that section of the UTXO set, and an address to pay him.
09:16 < bsm1175321> So, no PoW at that level in my half-finished head-model coin right now.
09:17 < bsm1175321> But you can imagine an attack by creating a large number of double-spends, just to tax the network.
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11:18 < maaku> kanzure: well lightning payments for p2p calls will make these ideas obsolete.
11:19 < kanzure> but why would anyone pay? there's probably always going to be freely available blockchain data.
11:20 < maaku> maybe
11:20 < maaku> but in the mean time if you turn it on within your own node, either (a) people stop asking or (b) you earn some money, so win-win
11:21 < maaku> I mean it may never make sense to run a node to collect the fees. it won't even cover the cost of running the server
11:21 < maaku> but it's a better rate limiter than making the caller burn electricity
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11:38 < instagibbs> maaku, indeed, if it's not being put into consensus it seems backwards
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13:56 < kanzure> maaku: spv-oblivious is actually the wrong phrase too..... it's still ambiguous. it needs to be, i think, spv-breaking and spv-non-breaking hard-forks.
13:57 < kanzure> or maybe spv-silent and spv-non-silent...... this is actually pretty hard.
13:57 < kanzure> intentionally-spv-breaking and intentionally-spv-non-breaking :P
13:58 < kanzure> or maybe the word "spv-halting" should be thrown in there somewhere.
13:59 < kanzure> too many dimensions
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14:38 < gmaxwell> I'm not sure if people have seen this yet, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7601
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16:52 < gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0 [Schnorr] Signature aggregation for improved scalablity.
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17:35 < kanzure> woot i predicted an attack gmaxwell would bring up
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17:35 < kanzure> unfortunately my email arrived late because it got stuck in the moderation queue
17:36 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012461.html
17:36 < kanzure> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012462.html
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21:34 < Jeremy_Rand_2> Hey, sorry to potentially waste your time, but someone pointed this out to me: https://blockstack.org/blockstack.pdf ... and I was wondering if people here have seen it, and if it's as thoroughly broken as I assume it probably is.
21:34 < Jeremy_Rand_2> (Sec. 4.5 looks particularly sketchy at first glance)
21:34 < bsm117532> FWIW I know one of the authors and respect him, I would not assume it's crap at first glance, but I will look...
21:36 < Jeremy_Rand_2> I also dug up a GitHub issue where they're talking about what appears to have become Sec. 4.5: https://github.com/blockstack/blockstack-server/issues/1
21:36 < Jeremy_Rand_2> they appear to be using social media posts as a consensus-achieving mechanism...?
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21:45 < Jeremy_Rand_2> Yeah so looking at their paper sec. 4.5, they talk about a bunch of stuff they do with the consensus hash, but they hand wave over the fact that the consensus hash needs to be bootstrapped from a trusted source.  At least, that's how I read it.
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22:58 < bsm117532> Yes, this community has a problem in general differentiating carefully thought-out ideas from "I've never written a line of code in my life, but I had this amazing idea on the shitter today!"
22:59 < Jeremy_Rand_2> bsm117532: I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to?
23:00 < bsm117532> Referencing blog posts, bitcointalk, reddit, mailing lists, twitter, IRC as sources of authoritative info.  (or github)
23:02 < Jeremy_Rand_2> I can't tell if you're making fun of me or commenting about someone else.  (Sorry, text-based communication is a bit ambiguous in tone.)
23:03 < bsm117532> Oh no not making fun of anyone.
23:03 < Jeremy_Rand_2> ok
23:03 < bsm117532> My background is academic...we have a process for separating the wheat from the chaff.  This space is extremely noisy, and referencing random websites is part of the reason.
23:04 < bsm117532> And I'm going to read that paper tomorrow, it's interesting.  Too tired now though.
23:04 < Jeremy_Rand_2> ok, no worries.  I probably should get sleep too
23:04 < bsm117532> Sorry i can't offer any interesting comments on it tonight.
23:05 < Jeremy_Rand_2> I'll try to idle in here, feel free to ping me when/if you have comments on that paper
23:05 < bsm117532> Will do, sleep well.
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23:41 < fluffypony> bsm117532: it's borderline "just get the blockchain from a trusted peer" :-P
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23:43 < pigeons> thats what ethereum reccomends
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 26 00:00:18 2016