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07:31 < instagibbs> Luke-Jr, " old nodes are presented with two equal options: follow the hardfork, or follow the softfork"
07:31 < instagibbs> can you back up and explain
07:31 < instagibbs> didn't catch it
07:32 < fluffypony> instagibbs: he's driving
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07:32 < jl2012> I think the softfork is "not to follow the hardfork"
07:33 < instagibbs> i dont get who is doing what there
07:34 < instagibbs> wrt soft-hardfork
07:35 < jl2012> if miners are abusing power to have a bad soft-hardfork, people will softfork themselves away from that fork
07:37 < instagibbs> oh i see
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07:37 < instagibbs> so no one is vanilla hard-forking
07:37 < instagibbs> "follow the soft-hardfork, or follow the softfork"
07:37 < jl2012> yes
07:38 < instagibbs> first blush I like it
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07:41 < instagibbs> you regain much of the power to reject such a change, without getting "left behind" on a weak PoW chain without taking action
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07:42 < jl2012> if there is no enough PoW left in the weak chain, it doesn't work
07:43 < jl2012> in that case, the choice will be soft-hardfork vs hardfork
07:43 < jl2012> either a difficulty reset, or a new PoW
07:44 < instagibbs> yep
07:44 < Luke-Jr> fluffypony: not yet
07:46 < instagibbs> jl2012, of course we should be comparing the failure modes of soft-hardfork vs hardfork
07:47 < jl2012> don't get your question
07:49 < instagibbs> it wasn't a question
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07:51 < instagibbs> soft-hardfork allows unaware users to stay on the "majority" PoW until action can be taken.
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07:52 < jl2012> in SHF, people will see empty blocks, can't receive any tx, and will see their txs never confirmed
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07:54 < jl2012> we may need to make tx with nVersion==1 non-standard (but still valid)
07:55 < Taek> can we pick a better name? I'm trying to imagine explaining this to reddit and it's not going well
07:55 < jl2012> Taek: you mean soft-hardfork?
07:55 < Taek> yeah
07:55 < jl2012> I think Luke-Jr likes this name. Me too
07:56 < Taek> I do like the concept though. If there's a hardfork that gets majority hashrate, the client should ~shut down until the user can figure out what's going on and what action should be taken
07:56 < instagibbs> yeah the txn thing may be a bit tricky. Users might "dump" all their funds in the soft-hardfork chain accidentally.
07:56 < neha> Has anyone seen this yet?  "Enhancing Bitcoin Security and Performance with
07:56 < instagibbs> without seeing the chain
07:56 < neha> Strong Consistency via Collective Signing"
07:56 < neha> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.06997v1.pdf
07:56 < jl2012> instagibbs: yes, so need to make old tx nonstatndard
07:57 < instagibbs> jl2012, you mean in softfork-softhardfork? (dangit we need better names :P )
07:57 < jl2012> what's that.....
07:58 < instagibbs> who is doing the nonstandardization, i mean
07:58 < instagibbs> the people softforking away from the softhardfork?
07:58 < instagibbs> malicious softhardforking wouldn't care enough I presume
07:58 < Taek> "ByzCoin employs communication trees to optimize transaction commitment and verification under normal operation while
07:58 < Taek> guaranteeing safety and liveness under Byzantine faults,
07:58 < Taek> up to a near-optimal tolerance of faulty group members
07:58 < Taek> among 3f+2 total." -> I haven't read more than the abstract but I get uncomfortable when I see things like 3f+2
07:59 < jl2012> after a SHF, v1 tx should become nonstandard, so non upgraded people won't accidentally spend their coins on the new chain
07:59 < instagibbs> jl2012, in a non-malicious variant, ok
07:59 < Taek> generally speaking the incentives are not aligned correctly when people start talking about paxos-style algorithms
08:00 < jl2012> you mean it's ok to allow old wallet to spend, in a non-malicious SHF?
08:00 < instagibbs> no, I was asking what scenario you are thinking of
08:00 < jl2012> problem is non-upgraded wallets will see their tx never confirmed, and may try to resend with a different UTXO
08:01 < instagibbs> I understand
08:01 < jl2012> it's suggested by adam3us
08:01 < kanzure> neha: thanks
08:02 < instagibbs> if miners are evil they just won't allow newer transaction versions, which doesn't allow it. But hopefully every non Evil person would just ignore that chain.
08:02 < instagibbs> softfork away
08:02 < neha> taek: yes, it' sa different model.
08:03 < kanzure> neha: "dynamically forming hash power-proportionate consensus groups representing recently-successful block miners" okay this sounds like bitcoin-ng and weak blocks and stuff
08:03 < neha> kanzure: yep they say they use an idea from there
08:03 < Taek> (beat me to posting the same quote lol)
08:03 < neha> i have not dug into it yet, just curious if it's come up here yet
08:03 < kanzure> Taek: the truth is that we are really all the same person
08:06 < nsh> other-me is lying. belay that
08:07 < kanzure> which one is the other you?
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08:09 < instagibbs> I do like how bsm117532 has gotten old and cynical quite fast on the "new ideas" front. Feels like yesterday when I was chiding him for Yet Another DAG idea.
08:10 < Taek> it's a curse of the channel. The price of wizardlyness is eternal pessimism.
08:10 < kanzure> i would call it a sort of pragmatic optimism
08:10 < nsh> you might consider it respect for complexity, rather than pessimism towards human artifice
08:11 < nsh> we have some appreciation for the formidable journey, but we still strive forward
08:12 < Luke-Jr> you can't softfork out v1 transactions!
08:12 < Luke-Jr> who knows how many nLockTime'd transactions are out there
08:15 < kanzure> huh? can't you count?
08:16 < kanzure> oh right....
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08:26 < bsm1175321> Ha!  I've been cynical of new ideas long before I showed up here ;-)
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08:38 < bsm1175321> Jeremy_Rand_2: so the consensus hash of sec. 4.5 of the paper you cite has been discussed here before.  More commonly people here talk of UTXO set commitments.  But computing that is difficult and work is ongoing.  It looks like their Consensus Hash is a poor-man's kind of UTXO set commitment.  I don't understand why a trusted source is needed...why not just commit to it in each block?
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08:59 < kanzure> jl2012: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/snarks/pcp/
08:59 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/
08:59 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2015/zerocash-and-zero-knowledge-succint-arguments-of-knowledge-libsnark/
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09:13 < jl2012> thanks!
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11:23 < brand0> bsm117532, I believe the thinking is that a trusted source is the only way to achieve SPV
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11:31 < bsm1175321> brand0: I don't understand why...
11:32 < brand0> why what?
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11:37 < bsm1175321> SPV requires a trusted source, once you have UTXO set commitments or their Consensus Hash idea...
11:37 < bsm1175321> s/^/Why /
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11:54 < brand0> because how can you validate the consensus hashes without parsing the bitcoin blockchain
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12:05 < bsm1175321> A UTXO set commitment (I'm thinking) is a commitment to the entire history of transactions.
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12:11 < gmaxwell> ebfull and I are about to perform the first Zero-Knowledge Contingent Payment (zkcp) live on the bitcoin network as part of a demo he's doing at FC16.
12:11 < gmaxwell> you can join ##zkcp to watch in IRC.
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12:45 < Jeremy_Rand_2> bsm117532: the issue is that the consensus hash they're using is placed in an OP_RETURN output by users of the system; it's not a consensus softfork and it's not part of the coinbase
12:45 < Jeremy_Rand_2> so if you want to figure out if the hash is correct, you need to either parse the entire blockchain yourself (not a lightweight client), or you need to find a trusted source to tell you a correct consensus hash
12:49 < bsm1175321> Ah I see.  Makes sense, AFAIK no one has made a working UTXO set commitment code yet.
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12:51 < gmaxwell> there have been several implementations, but they have a large performance impact; enough to make their value questionable.
12:52 < gmaxwell> bootstraping off a commitment is SPV security; the usecases where SPV security is enough and not enough are perhaps somewhat narrow. :)
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13:03 < Jeremy_Rand_2> What bothers me is that Onename has been repeatedly claiming that their so-called consensus hash enables "SPV-like" functionality, which I think is misleading since to get lightweight functionality with it, you need a trusted source to give you a consensus hash
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13:08 < andytoshi> hi gmaxwell, i'm at the FC16 conference watching the demo. sipa is filming, not sure if he'll be able to chat
13:08 < andytoshi> ebfull is doing the presentation now, looks good
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13:35 < gmaxwell> https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/
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13:36 < kanzure> https://z.cash/zkcp3.pdf
13:40 < Luke-Jr> sipa is a videographer? :o
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14:07 < coinoperated> he has a smartphone, doesn't he?
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14:21 < Anduck> what if coinA and coinB make 2-2 multisig to timelock coins / something and use ZKCP to swap the coins? could it be done
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14:48 < zorba_tg> gmaxwell: Great read. Can the following be acomplished with ZKCP: A payment, bigger then the block reward, will be sent in return to a block solution?
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14:50 < gmaxwell> zorba_tg: as in paying people to withold blocks?
14:50 < wallet42> zorba_tg: that's interesting.
14:52 < wallet42> unfortunatly your transaction has to be mined into a block
14:52 < wallet42> and you dont know the prevblock then
14:52 < wallet42> so you can not ask someone to create a block on top of the block your transaction is mined into
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14:56 < kanzure> https://tlsnotary.org/
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15:21 < zorba_tg> gmaxwell: more generaly, can ZKCP allow an atomic payment to a miner in return for including specific data in block?
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15:24 < gmaxwell> No-- the payment only begins after the information is in the possession of the seller.  Though transaction fees accomplish what you're describin.
15:24 < gmaxwell> describing*
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15:41 < gmaxwell> kanzure: where is ajtowns writeup of that single show signature?
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15:45 < gmaxwell> found it
15:48 < aj> gmaxwell: "The GGPR'12 cryptosystem requires a trusted setup, but for the ZKCP application this is no real limitation since the buyer can perform it." -- not sure if it's a different system, but my understanding was that if the buyer chooses the params, they could construct them so that the proofs leaked information
15:48 < aj> gmaxwell: in any event, very cool
15:48 < gmaxwell> aj: thats not the case.
15:49 < gmaxwell> unless there is some new paper I'm unaware of, but it's hard to see how thats possible.
15:49 < kanzure> gmaxwell: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-November/000344.html
15:49 < gmaxwell> The last step in the prover is to randomize the proof, and any valid proof value should be equally probable at the end.
15:50 < kanzure> also, single-show stuff was discussed here http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-11-24.log
15:50 < gmaxwell> aj: now, the party that does the setup could trivially construct fake proofs against their verification key.
15:53 < kanzure> and the party that does setup, instead of choosing to construct fake proofs, could more easily cheat by picking a hash and preimage through less complex means. but this is basically back to selling hash preimages without the zero-knowledge aspects.
15:54 < aj> gmaxwell: i'll take your word for it. (the only reference that i found as to what "trusted" actually meant for this was about as authoritative as an irc snippet, and i don't even remember what paper it was in)
15:57 < gmaxwell> aj: Theorem 6 of the GGPR'12 paper, its on page 26.
15:57 < kanzure> does tiernolan know about -wizards
16:00 < kanzure> if he is not keen on irc then we can at least point him to https://bitcoincore.slack.com/messages/ircbridge-wizards/
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16:03 < aj> gmaxwell: yup, that seems rather persuasive
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16:05 < gmaxwell> aj: but I'm not an expert; It would be worth confirming, I've also not bothered checking if libsnark actually does the rerandomization.
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16:07 < bramc> Hey everybody
16:07 < kanzure> to make hard-forks even more painful and less frequent, would it be a good time to also have jtimon do various libconsensus-related alterations? i know the code movements are unrelated but if we're going to experience hard-fork pains then we might as well also throw that one into the pile, if it makes sense.
16:09 < gmaxwell> bramc: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/
16:11 < bramc> gmaxwell: Awesome!
16:13 < bramc> Next up: illegitimate cert authorities
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17:00 < bsm117532> bramc: Don't worry, that one is covered.  Someone attached this weird "coin" idea to this perfect distributed keyserver I've been working on...
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18:06 < JackH> so with gmaxwell's zk solution we can build this into wallets and allow people to purchase digital goods with perfect security of payment and delivery between two parties?
18:07 < bramc> JackH: It only works for things where there's a completely self-contained proof that the good is valid
18:07 < midnightmagic> not perfect security.
18:07 < bsm117532> JackH: the hard part is building a ZKP verification system.  So the problem domain is restricted to things which can be algorithmically verified (and don't cost an inordinate amount of CPU to verify).  But, generally, yes.
18:07 < gmaxwell> JackH: yes, but the protocol requires uh. Perhaps a good way to think of this is:  The protocol requires that you have a "virtual agent" that can inspect the goods and decide that they're to your liking.
18:07 < bramc> Like, a program which you can run and say 'yes this is the thing I want' or 'no it isn't'
18:08 < JackH> so this requires modification on "both" ends? the payment receiving end and the payee
18:09 < JackH> wallet end and payment processor
18:09 < gmaxwell> what a sad little science fiction story that is, where someone uploads their mind, just so they can send it over the wire to inspect things for them then flash out of existance (so that it can't leak anything it learned.)
18:09 < JackH> baby steps now ;)
18:09 < gmaxwell> JackH: yes. It's a two party protocol. You prove to me you've got the goods I want, I verify and pay.
18:09 < bsm117532>  JackH: no this is not adaptable to general purchases.  It's restricted to purchases which can be algorithmically verified.
18:10 < JackH> alright, got it, so we have to prepare on our end for it too when we receive payments
18:10 < JackH> can I automate it? so that I integrate Bitcoin as a payment method into a shop, and subsequently integrate it as ZK ready
18:10 < JackH> (we are a BTC payment processor, hence the questions)
18:11 < bsm117532> JackH: Only if you're selling digitally verifiable goods.
18:11 < bsm117532> So I seriously doubt this applies to you.
18:11 < gmaxwell> yea, it's fully automatic. in a day or two I'll probably put up a faucet running this for a little while, so you can sell me sudokos for bitcoin. :P
18:11 < bramc> The neat thing about this protocol is that the amount of stuff which has to be put on the blockchain is minimal: All it requires is a transaction dependent on two hash preimages, and it might even be possible to optimize those out using schnorr signature sharing
18:11 < JackH> I would like to end up fitting this as an API function to our PSP
18:12 < JackH> so that merchants can opt-in for ZK
18:12 < JackH> if they need it
18:12 < gmaxwell> bramc: if you look at the original page on this, I point out that it can be turned into a 2of2 signature, ... and with schnorr that can be the same size as a regular 1 of 1.
18:12 < bramc> gmaxwell: Cool, it's easier to explain with the two hash preimages though.
18:13 < JackH> any plans to create libraries gmaxwell ?
18:13 < bramc> JackH: The 'hard' part is figuring out 'useful' things to offer rewards for
18:13 < bsm117532> JackH: what kind of goods do you sell?
18:13 < JackH> casino's should be good for this
18:13 < gmaxwell> JackH: not soon. The underlying tools are not mature enough yet. right now creating the verifier is a lot like designing an ASIC.
18:14 < bramc> Gambling on the block chain can be done without any of the ZK magic
18:14 < gmaxwell> because the compiler tools aren't there yet.
18:14 < midnightmagic> :-( casinos would be horrible for this
18:14 < JackH> We dont sell anything bsm117532, we just provide payment processing for merchants
18:14 < bramc> The 'obvious' applications are fairly black hat, mostly involving paying people for private keys corresponding to important public keys
18:15 < bsm117532> JackH: This is useless for physical goods.  Digital goods maybe, but again the difficult part is identifying what you want to "prove" to verify that the good is valid.
18:15 < bramc> Although most of those could be done with simpler techniques as well, particularly public keys of types which are used directly on the blockchain.
18:16 < JackH> bsm117532, I know, but I am thinking more as a service rather than end product. I will leave that up to the merchants, and just provide an API
18:16 < JackH> but gmaxwell has to make that library this weekend ;)
18:18 < gmaxwell> bramc: part of the reasons the obvious applications bend in that direction is because for the more 'liccit' activityies plain escrow generally suffices.
18:19 < JackH> would it make sense to use it as replacement for escrow?
18:20 < gmaxwell> This is a replacement for escrow for the subset of cases where it can be used... where someone can write a program that acts as a virtual "agent" that decides if the information being sold is the information the buyer wants to buy.
18:21 < JackH> hmm so, secret documents would be perfect just to take something from the top of my head
18:22 < gmaxwell> Right. Someone could sell the decryption key to the wikileaks insurance archive, for example.
18:24 < JackH> what else? something that more than secret agencies possibly?
18:25 < JackH> something that everyday people need? (beside sudoku of course)
18:26 < bsm117532> JackH: Can you convince your vendors or their customers to write computer programs that validate if a digital good is authentic?
18:26 < JackH> actually wait, couldn this be key-pairs? people can prove they have their own part of a key string, but without exposing the key
18:27 < gmaxwell> Sure, though thats what a digital signature does.
18:27 < JackH> well, what digital good needs to be "authentic"?
18:27 < JackH> hmm, true...
18:27 < bsm117532> Yes, most definitely.  See bramc's "illicit" comment above...
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18:28 < bsm117532> Ran into this tonight:Sneak's Law: Most users cannot or will not securely manage key material (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k4GP3Evh9c @ 23:00)
18:28 < JackH> how about, this is my DNA, and here is the proof, but you cant see my DNA code itself
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18:29 < gmaxwell> some of what you're strugling with is just the limitations of what smart contracts can do-- and this particular case covers only a subset (though a large one) of the total space for smart contracts.
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18:35 < JackH> I will come up with something practical and cool. In any case, great work gmaxwell!
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--- Log closed Sat Feb 27 00:00:44 2016