--- Log opened Tue Mar 01 00:00:47 2016
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00:49 < wallet421> is it possible to mark a transaction as INVALID if it has not been included into a block until height X?
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00:52 < wallet421> basicly reverse nLocktime
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00:57 < nsh> .title https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028499.0
00:57 < yoleaux> Inverse of nlocktime -- OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY related question
00:57 < nsh> 'You are looking for nLastTime, which I have been assured will never be accepted into Bitcoin core because people don't want to deal with legitimate transactions (ie, not depending on a deliberate double spend) becoming undone in the event of a reorg.  '
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00:59 < nsh> wisdom of the ancients: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1786.msg22119#msg22119
01:01 < nsh> (however, people are being a little bit lazy in saying it's not possible due to the re-org consequences. they could be bounded or made to decay with other transaction rules, but it would certainly be a nontrivial departure from the current validity consensus)
01:01 < nsh> (maybe in a sidechain/whatever...)
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06:14 < Taek> nsh: what if you were to put a confirmation limit on being able to spend the coins/
06:15 < Taek> Similar to how miners can't spend their coins for 80 blocks, you could have OP_BLOCKNUMBER create outputs that weren't spendable for 80 confirmations
06:15 < Taek> it does seem to me like op_blocknumber would have a lot of uses. One obvious one is that you could guarantee a transaction wouldn't get stuck in a mempool abyss and potentially spent 3 months later
06:16 < bsm117532> Taek: I'm actually pretty worried about that as fee pressure goes up. It's not at all obvious to me that fee pressures will actually reduce the demand for transactions.  And as you say, something could sit in the mempool for a very long time.
06:18 < Taek> fee pressure will absolutely reduce the demand for transactions. 90% of my transactions are worth less than 1btc, if the fee goes above that I'll become very frugal with my transactions
06:18 < Taek> joinmarket would become out of the question
06:19 < Taek> so, the real question is whether fees would go to 10 cents, $1, or $50, because I don't think they would go much hire than the price of a wire transfer any time soon
06:19 < bsm117532> But that fee pressure doesn't make low-fee transactions go away, as you point out.
06:19 < Taek> *higher
06:19 < Taek> 0.12 throws out low fee transactions once the mempool hits 300MB I believe
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06:20 < Taek> oh
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06:20 < Taek> someone could maliciously hold on to transactions forever
06:20 < Taek> and then paste them years later
06:20 < instagibbs> Taek, you're talking about the opposite of nlocktime?
06:21 < instagibbs> err CLTV I guess
06:21 < Taek> instagibbs: yeah, nsh and wallet421 were talking about it above
06:21 < bsm117532> Taek: why?  To collect the low transaction fees once the block size goes up and the fees go down?
06:21 < instagibbs> bram has mused about it quite a bit
06:21 < Taek> bsm117532: maybe he's just an asshole
06:21 < Taek> (bbiab)
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06:22 < bsm117532> hahaaa
06:22 < instagibbs> if it's free to do, expect it to happen :P
06:22 < bsm117532> Transactions in limbo is a really crappy situation for a fast settlement system. It's quite difficult for the sender to know his transaction is in limbo too...
06:27 < fluffypony> it's an interesting thought, although I suspect that the chances of the utxo's for that tx not being spent years later is pretty low
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06:41 < kanzure> are there any solutions for transaction size estimation before signing? knowing the transaction size would be helpful for figuring out what fee to apply to the transaction.
06:42 < kanzure> additionally, requiring multiple rounds of signing (because of getting the size estimation wrong) is contrary to high-security signing procedures (e.g. the signing procedure has to be made easier to facilitate multiple rounds if your size estimation was wrong)
06:45 < fluffypony> kanzure: brute force is the only way I can think of, as virtually any change can push it over the next kb boundary
06:45 < fluffypony> unless we accept that guesstimating is fine and we may be out by a kb
06:46 < kanzure> that's a frightening answer. that basically eliminates any possibility of any sign-only-once protocols...
06:46 < kanzure> perhaps another solution is to pad signatures up to a certain minimum size :D
06:47 < fluffypony> lol
06:54 < aj> kanzure: each signature adds about 70 bytes, an extra p2pkh input (including signature) adds about 146 bytes
06:55 < kanzure> thanks.
06:55 < Taek> "over the next kb boundary" ? what is that?
06:56 < aj> fluffypony: using kB boundaries to change your fee is a pretty bad idea for most transactions (ie in the 200-800 byte range)
06:56 < fluffypony> yeah
06:56 < aj> kanzure: removing change saves about 34 bytes
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07:05 < Eliel> kanzure: it's solvable, just require padding so signatures are always the same length. Which is actually unnecessary, because you can just calculate the fee for the worst case that's a few bytes bigger than the normal case.
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07:06 < kanzure> are wallets currently calculating the worst case signature sizes?
07:07 < Eliel> kanzure: all I can say is that bitcoinj fee calculation code was complex enough that I didn't feel like trying to figure it out.
07:07 < Eliel> I did figure out that it's an iterative process though.
07:08 < aj> Eliel: bitcoinj does per-kB fees rather than per-byte still, i think, so it's not a good example anyway...
07:09 < Eliel> yes, I think that's part of the reason it was so complex.
07:16 < Taek> my wallet gives an exact number of bytes before I sign
07:16 < Taek> bitcoin-qt
07:17 < Taek> I'm guessing it assumes worst-case
07:17 < Taek> size is almost always 225b
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08:49 < jcorgan> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/482/20160210:190212
08:49 < jcorgan> .title
08:49 < yoleaux> Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/482
08:49 < jcorgan> heh
08:50 < jcorgan> Extractable Witness Encryption and Timed-Release Encryption from Bitcoin
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09:25 < Iriez> Does the new -maxmempool parameter have a ceiling? Or can it be as large as im willing to expand it?
09:26 < nsh> (maybe #bitcoin-dev)
09:27 < Iriez> I cannot join the channel, sorry.
09:28 < Iriez> n/m, fixed my identity registration issue. Thanks.
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09:43 < kanzure> petertodd: tell me things about blinding of coin age
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09:44 < petertodd> kanzure: read jdillon's proof-of-stake proposal - it can be done in a soft fork
09:45 < petertodd> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=230864.0
09:46 < kanzure> petertodd: what are your thoughts regarding transaction capacity limitations of coin age staking?
09:46 < kanzure> e.g. there are 16 million utxos or something
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09:51 < petertodd> kanzure: most of those utxos are insignificant dust
09:51 < petertodd> kanzure: 35,122,599 utxos
09:51 < kanzure> wouldn't it be conceivably possible to ignore someone's "dust" despite them having large infrastructure?
09:52 < kanzure> oops how did i miscount utxos?? geeze.
09:52 < petertodd> it's a coin-age-destroyed vote - dust is irrelevant in comparison to bigger utxos
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09:53 < kanzure> (please consider not calling these votes)
09:55 < petertodd> kanzure: no, they're votes
09:55 < kanzure> that's problematic because then you need to define processes around ballot creation etc... and ballot options... and then you need to figure out what voting scheme you are selecting.
09:55 < petertodd> kanzure: like it or not, coin-age destroyed triggered blocksize increases are very much a vote about the future of the system
09:56 < kanzure> http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/
09:56 < petertodd> kanzure: none of that's all that hard - it'll end up in some bip with source code, likely with one or two bits basically just being 'ready/for' or 'not-ready/against'
09:56 < kanzure> and what does it mean for someone to abstain from "voting" but still making a transaction anyway? i don't think it makes sense to make it about voting.
09:57 < petertodd> kanzure: you can't *not* make it about voting - that's the political effect either way
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11:55 < columbo> Question -- I have a transaction that's not yet signed. I want to create another transaction that spends this one (part of a larger protocol). Can I do this? In other words, does the transaction output hash include the signature?
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11:56 < columbo> or can you reference an unsigned transaction?
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12:01 < instagibbs> columbo, #bitcoin maybe
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12:05 < columbo> does anyone know for sure?
12:06 < instagibbs> not the right channel for this, is what I mean
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12:49 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTGqP0nxX08
12:49 < yoleaux> DISI 2007: A Fool's Errand Inventing Public Key Cryptography. - YouTube
12:49 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BJuuUxCaaY
12:49 < yoleaux> Information Security—Before & After Public-Key Cryptography - YouTube
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12:51 < kanzure> http://amturing.acm.org/award_winners/diffie_8371646.cfm
12:51 < kanzure> i like how this page does not mention merkle
12:51 < kanzure> (meaning, i don't like this aspect)
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13:59 < ggreer> hellman was merkle's advisor, right? I'm guessing merkle didn't contribute as much as the other two
14:02 < ggreer> also, triple-winners are rare. I count 2/49: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_Award
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14:04 < ggreer> one other thing: merkle had more contributions to computer science. maybe he'll get a solo award in the future
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16:23 < maaku> ggreer: speaking generally (I have no specific knowledge here), advisors usually take the best ideas from their grad students
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16:31 < maaku> What is the largest k-of-n multisig that can be accomplished on plain (non-segwit) bitcoin?
16:33 < maaku> I mean this in a wizardly way, not #bitcoin. The redeem script has a 520 byte push limitation. Is there some tricky way to get the pubkeys out of the redeem script? Has anyone investigated what a true upper bound on k-of-n would be?
16:38 < maaku> obviously having hash160 reduces the amount of data that needs to be there by 12 bytes per pubkey.. but for large k-of-n those bytes end up being used by DUP/DIP trickery
16:39 < JackH> DIP?
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16:48 < bsm1175321> I think if I were to design a new coin, I would include the concept of expiration dates for the UTXO set (because, keys get lost).  This is pretty obviously a good thing for pure data storage (e.g. a hash of a proof-of-purchase might be stored for 30 days), but I think it would be good for coins too.  Because people lose their keys, and this is an effective deflationary force of unknown size.
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16:51 < aj> maaku: OP_PICK/OP_HASH160/OP_EQUALVERIFY would let you verify them with only 4 of those 12 bytes i think? 25 bytes per key would let you do n=20 afaics? (ie <n+1> PICK <k> EQUALVERIFY { <n+1> PICK HASH160 <pkh> EQUALVERIFY } <n> CHECKMULTISIG
16:52 < aj> oh, the n+1's should be decreasing i suppose
16:53 < aj> (or i should've said ROLL instead of PICK)
16:55 < bsm1175321> Hmmm... @maaku,aj: is bitcoin script expressive enough to verify a multisig schnorr signature?
16:56 < bsm1175321> Seems like it might be for n-of-n...
16:57 < aj> bsm1175321: https://blockstream.com/2015/08/24/treesignatures/ ? :)
16:57 < bsm1175321> aj: exactly, and related work by the blockstream folks...
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16:58 < aj> bsm1175321: needs a schnorr opcode, but apparently that's on the roadmap from hong kong the other day
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16:59 < bsm1175321> Yeah good point.  I had a momentary brainfart and forgot that ECDSA != Schnorr and I was stuck in a land of adding pubkeys...
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17:27 < ggreer> https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/ <-- holy cow. recent mempool history to 7 days. that's crazy
17:28 < phantomcircuit> ggreer, it's generally a good idea to ignore those charts
17:28 < phantomcircuit> they're basically never accurate
17:29 < phantomcircuit> you can see where their node was restarted in the graph too which im 90% sure will screw up the data
17:30 < ggreer> are you saying the mempool hasn't gone from 2ish MB to 40ish MB in the past week?
17:31 < JackH> which python lib is the latest one to use? peter todds?
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17:41 < phantomcircuit> ggreer, im saying that the public data on this is almost entirely unreliable
17:41 < phantomcircuit> im working on gathering more reliable information on this now
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17:47 < ggreer> I'm wondering what evidence would convince you then. in what way would all the public data be skewed? I linked to the prettiest chart, but other independently-created charts agree with that one
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17:49 < maaku> today I learned that Merkle had something approximately isomorphic to hashcash as early as 1974 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle's_Puzzles
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17:51 < maaku> aj: Ah, OP_ROLL. Cool thanks that's a significant improvement.
17:52 < maaku> too bad we don't have a 128-bit hash, which would be sufficient for my use case
17:52 < aj> maaku: (PICK includes DUP, ROLL doesn't)
17:52 < maaku> bsm1175321: key trees need OP_CAT as well
17:53 < maaku> or really, OP_CHECKMERKLEBRANCHVERIFY
17:54 < maaku> JackH: depends on what you're trying to do
17:54 < maaku> JackH: also, #bitcoin-dev I would assume
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17:56 < aj> ggreer: my current mempool (with no min fee) is 300MB, and has been for the month i've been running that node...
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18:05 < maaku> ggreer: Those numbers are meaningless because if you generated a bunch of dust outputs (e.g. during the last half dozen "stress tests") you can spend dust->dust in transactions that will never hit the block chain ever, but will inflate those numbers
18:06 < maaku> I'm pretty sure with the amount of dust on the chain you could generate 1GB mempools easily, and it'd be totally meaningless
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18:22 < kanzure> maaku: there was an interesting intuitive explanation of the origin of merkle's puzzles, let me see if i can pull it up
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18:28 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20070311022139/http://www.itas.fzk.de/mahp/weber/merkle.htm
18:28 < kanzure> "The first realization, of course, was that if both the computer and the terminal were deterministic, then of course you could compromise the system, if you knew the initial state and you knew the traffic over the communications line. So I fairly quickly concluded that there had to be some random component. And then it was simply a question of how to utilize that random component in a way which would provide confusion to the ...
18:28 < kanzure> ... eavesdropper that would grow more rapidly than the confusion of either the two parties communicating."
18:32 < kanzure> "And one night I was contemplating how it is that... What was the problem that I was considering specifically? I think I was trying to figure out the problem of you're trying to log into a computer in some secure fashion and the computer security has been compromised and has since been sealed up again. I was trying to figure out how to re-establish secure communications. And as I was thinking about it, it basically occurred to me that ...
18:32 < kanzure> ... I was unable to prove that full disclosure of the complete state both of the computer and of the person communicating with it (and presumably they would have a terminal with which they were communicating with a computer) it occurred to me that I was unable to prove that under those circumstances, security would necessarily be compromised. So I began trying to figure out, was there some way of showing clearly that if you compromised ...
18:32 < kanzure> ... both computer and the terminal which was communicating with the computer, whether you could then prove that in the absence of some secure channel, some secret channel like a courier, whether you could prove that in fact security had been compromised. And as I thought about it, I realized that not only could I not prove it, it was not even clear that it was correct. So I began thinking about it, and then over the next few days I ...
18:32 < kanzure> ... figured out the puzzles technique."
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19:07 < ggreer> "The mempool data you see is 72 hours of unconfirmed transactions, less any double spends whose conflicted transactions have been confirmed."
19:08 < ggreer> so restarting would bring tradeblock's figures to 0, but it won't grow without bound like a typical bitcoin client
19:08 < ggreer> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ctewf/tradeblock_inflated_mempool_size/ct0v4hg
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19:19 < Lightsword> ggreer, does tradeblock have a minrelaytxfee set?
19:19 < ggreer> not sure. I'd bet >0 though
19:20 < funkenstein_> there's no incentive to relay TXs or maintain a mempool other than altruistic, right?
19:20 < ggreer> otherwise it'd be too easy to game the stat
19:20 < Lightsword> mempool is more for your own use
19:20 < ggreer> *>0.00001
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19:22 < Lightsword> is anyone tracking how many transactions are using opt-in RBF?
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20:10 < Zarok> Hello
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20:42 < bsm1175321> maaku: your link describes an early version of Diffie-Hellman (without a solution), not hashcash.  How is that related to hashcash?
20:45 < bsm1175321> Rather it's a linear vs quadratic : honest vs attacker complexity D-H, which as the article states, is not terribly useful.  Still don't see what has to do with hashcash...
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22:22 < maaku> bsm1175321: If I understand Merkle puzzles correctly, it gates access / secures the communication line based on a puzzle that has assymetric difficulty
22:23 < maaku> So I precompute some data, you pick a nonce, and we can communicate securely, at least until an evesdropper does a not insignificant (for 1974) amount of work
22:24 < maaku> The application of assymetric puzzles in order to rate limit and / or make attackers do work is essentially hashcash
22:24 < maaku> Just a different puzzle here...
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22:55 < funkenstein_> maaku hmm interesting, quadratic complexity consensus.  would it work?
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 02 00:00:48 2016