--- Log opened Fri Mar 04 00:00:50 2016
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02:51 < JackH> harding, would it be correct to also say: 1 hash = 1 calculation? or do we have a better definition for "a hash"
02:51 < JackH> a miner performs a calculation? no right? a miner guesses a string? what would be the definition here?
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03:20 < fluffypony> One successful hash or one attempt, jackH ?
03:21 < JackH> one attempt
03:21 < fluffypony> I would say "1 guess" or "1 attempt" are accurate
03:22 < fluffypony> Since it technically involves multiple calculations I would avoid that word
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03:26 < JackH> ok so when we say: 1PH/s does that imply 1 quadrillion calculations or attempts
03:26 < JackH> I mean, it is attempts, but that sounds silly too
03:26 < JackH> I tried something one quadrillion times....
03:28 < JackH> reason being is that if its not explained very clear, it is impossible to teach people or give them clarity
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07:48 < tromp_> proof attempt is good. it's not necessarily the same as a hash computation (if we consider other PoW besides Hashcash)
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08:57 < jannes> Good initiative? http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=2449 (Courtois warning)
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09:03 < Taek> 5btc for discovery in of [attacks] in ZK proofs, ring signatures, key management, and other advanced cryptographic techniques
09:04 < Taek> I support that, provided there's responsible disclosure of course
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09:07 < jannes> good point
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10:12 < fluffypony> Taek: although 5 BTC is a little small
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10:13 < Taek> I thought so to, but it  seems to be targeted more at students. If you're convincing someone to choose X over Y for a thesis, 5btc might be plenty
10:16 < fluffypony> ah yeah true
10:19 < tromp_> any progress on testing new Moner PoW, fluffy?
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10:31 < fluffypony> tromp_: been playing around with it, satoshi roundtable threw my timetable a bit - just got home a couple of hours ago
10:33 < tromp_> home as in SA?
10:33 < fluffypony> yes
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10:41 < brg444> so can someone walk me through why ext. blocks as implemented in this paper is not a good idea https://github.com/goodsamaritan9000/scalingbitcoin/raw/master/Bitcoin9000.pdf
10:41 < Aleph0> fluffypony: whats moneros new pow?
10:42 < fluffypony> Aleph0: we're going to do Cuckoo Cycle for a PoW-on-connect challenge, and if it holds up as we hope then we will switch to it as our main PoW
10:46 < maaku> fluffypony: is that code written? want to upstream it?
10:46 < fluffypony> maaku: no not yet - upstreaming would be difficult, we don't share a common codebase
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10:50 < instagibbs> fluffypony, cool
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10:51 < instagibbs> any documentation on that?
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10:59 < instagibbs> (meaning plans for the connection challenge)
11:02 < fluffypony> instagibbs: no - at the moment it's just been some discussionabout what that could look like - I think the concept is reasonably clear: random PoW challenge when an inbound peer connects, if they solve the challenge continue with the connection, else add them to the ban list
11:03 < instagibbs> right, well I was just wondering since it's a low-energy form of PoW an attacker could just take time to exhaust resources if it's a "challenge and forget" type system.
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11:10 < instagibbs> I haven't done much thinking about such things, but the more I think about it, the more your version seems the safest. I'd be interested in the future.
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11:13 < fluffypony> instagibbs: the key advantage here is that the attacker expends way more energy computing the attack than our node spends verifying it
11:13 < fluffypony> because of that unique property of Cuckoo Cycle
11:16 < Aleph0> but an attacker can utilize a single beefy machine to connect a bunch of nodes, all of them re-using the pow-accelerator-equipped machine.
11:17 < instagibbs> guess I thought it was more about memory-bounding attacks
11:18 < smooth> how does a single machine help if each challenge is unique
11:18 < instagibbs> Aleph0, tromp_ believes that the cycle cannot be appreciably sped up by special machines, so let's assume just RAM is needed
11:18 < Aleph0> smooth: you re-use its resoruces for each connect.
11:18 < smooth> Aleph0: at a minimum it limits the rate of connections
11:19 < instagibbs> I suppose making the challenge takes minutes to solve would work
11:19 < instagibbs> minutes, seconds, whatever
11:19 < Aleph0> smooth: might as well implement a back-off algo, same thing
11:19 < smooth> even if it take 10 seconds, thats still probably 100x slower than if you just flooded connections
11:19 < smooth> Aleph0: only if you can identify the originator
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11:20 < instagibbs> What I imagined before was something like: Draw a random number from an exponential distribution. Wait that many minutes, then suddenly challenge all your peers to use significant amount of RAM. If it's sybil, many should fail.
11:20 < Aleph0> you can still get DDoSed with a botnet, you will be able to request a ton of challenges
11:20 < instagibbs> but that is problematic for bans
11:21 < smooth> Aleph0: it costs virtually nothing to provide challenges and verify them
11:21 < Aleph0> smooth: probably a good idea to implement back off for challenge requests too, if you are trying to protect from repeated requests.
11:22 < smooth> you can certainly get connection flooded or whatever
11:22 < Aleph0> good point on that cuckoo pow helps to identify the requester.
11:23 < Aleph0> smooth: or flooded with invalid challenge responses, those are cheap to generate.
11:23 < fluffypony> Aleph0: they're equally cheap to verify and ban
11:23 < instagibbs> yeah banning is the key there
11:23 < fluffypony> which means it's no worse than the current mechanism
11:23 < instagibbs> if we're banning, it's probably not a good idea to scatter challenges about, only on connect
11:24 < fluffypony> yeah, keep it simple
11:24 < smooth> banning isn't always a useful option. Over Tor for example.
11:24 < instagibbs> partitioning accidentally/maliciously could happen fast
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11:26 < smooth> if you make connecting expensive (but cheap to verify) then attackers have higher costs than honest users. Thats about the best that is possible I think
11:26 < fluffypony> yeah
11:26 < Aleph0> challenge request should be difficult to compute
11:26 < instagibbs> smooth, then the question why not just some form of hashcash
11:27 < smooth> instagibbs: that would work, but it does introduce issues between different equipment
11:27 < Aleph0> are there such schemes, where an attacker has to expend resources before even requesting challenge?
11:27 < instagibbs> Aleph0, bitcoin mining :D
11:27 < Aleph0> send a coin?
11:27 < Aleph0> lol
11:27 < instagibbs> mine coin, get it, store it, spend it for other things :P
11:27 < smooth> Aleph0: that would work too
11:27 < smooth> pay on connect
11:28 < instagibbs> I suppose you could "bind" it to a peer you want to connect to
11:28 < Aleph0> smooth: demand all new connecting nodes send some cash
11:28 < smooth> but it does incentivize malicious receivers
11:28 < smooth> (accept connection, receive payment, disconnect)
11:28 < Aleph0> which is held in trust, until challenge is successfully verified
11:28 < instagibbs> You could also mix and match: Pay me via LN 1 satoshi or solve this memory hard puzzle"
11:28 < Aleph0> smooth: an escrow multisig
11:28 < smooth> or just burn the coin
11:29 < Aleph0> smooth: thats a lot of burned coins.
11:29 < Aleph0> instagibbs: can you do multisig escrows on LN?
11:29 < instagibbs> Aleph0, yes
11:29 < Aleph0> amazing.
11:29 < smooth> Aleph0: No necessarily, it depends on the size of the payment. I mean how much is 30 second or whatever of PoW going to be worth?
11:30 < smooth> burning coins seems about the same as hashcash
11:30 < Aleph0> smooth: burning coins can only be done in a coin with some inflation
11:30 < instagibbs> smooth, yeah my point was if we're burning money, why not use Bitcoin...
11:30 < Aleph0> i think placing it in escrow is enough, and you can use larger amounts to discourage attacks.
11:30 < smooth> instagibbs: im not sure im understanding, but that's what I was suggesting
11:31 < instagibbs> we're concurring
11:31 < Aleph0> smooth: do you suggest blackholing coins?
11:31 < smooth> i wasn't suggesting it, i think some sort of pow is better
11:31 < smooth> but i think burning is better than paying
11:32 < Aleph0> i think larger amounts in escrow are better.
11:32 < smooth> how do you resolve the escrow?
11:32 < Aleph0> no risk to an honest users, huge cost to attackers
11:32 < smooth> how does the attacker lose the coins?
11:32 < Aleph0> smooth: multisig with a pow-challenge oracle
11:32 < instagibbs> LN escrow for peer challenges, this is getting loops lol
11:33 < Aleph0> for this to work, you must have LN-like mechanism
11:33 < Aleph0> instagibbs: built-in demand for LN
11:34 < instagibbs> you could simply tie up a 2-of-3(with third key being something junk) with a short timeout, wait for the hltc to timeout, hltc expires
11:34 < Aleph0> the big problem would be getting first balance.
11:34 < instagibbs> or am I just smoking here
11:34 < smooth> Aleph0: thats one of the reasons i think pow is better
11:34 < instagibbs> unredeemable HLTC I guess I mean
11:34 < instagibbs> so... no hash, just "wait"
11:35 < Aleph0> instagibbs: why not 3-rd key being challenge verification proof?
11:35 < instagibbs> LTC, not HLTC
11:35 < smooth> also if nodes are making payments ie means they have hot wallets which makes they a juicy target
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11:35 < instagibbs> Aleph0, well you don't want to actually pay the person you're trying to connect to(esp them doing work to get it)
11:35 < Aleph0> smooth: HSM
11:35 < instagibbs> smooth, hopefully this would be small amounts
11:36 < instagibbs> I like my LTC idea actually.
11:36 < smooth> instagibbs: true
11:36 < instagibbs> You tie your money up in LN with the person you want to connect to
11:36 < instagibbs> they can't get paid by it
11:36 < instagibbs> but they won't "sign off" on getting it back until time runes out
11:38 < instagibbs> nevermind, doesn't make sense. Ignore.
11:39 < instagibbs> hops would lose access to their own money for no reason
11:40 < Aleph0> instagibbs: how would a brand new node get a balance?
11:40 < Aleph0> you need to connect first to get a balance.
11:41 < instagibbs> Aleph0, that's an orthogonal question imo.
11:41 < Aleph0> why?
11:41 < instagibbs> because you do both
11:42 < instagibbs> cuckoo if not on LN or don't care about a bit of ram, or just pay
11:42 < instagibbs> not an either/or
11:42 < instagibbs> xor*
11:42 < Aleph0> pay to get paid
11:42 < Aleph0> i guess you could protect the high-uptime nodes like that.
11:42 < instagibbs> i pay for gas to get to work(actually I don't but bear with me)
11:43 < instagibbs> doesn't have to be a lot
11:44 < instagibbs> pretty much anything is better than now
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11:45 < Aleph0> the amount could be dynamic
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11:46 < Aleph0> isnt this what cloudfare does, basically
11:46 < Aleph0> with pow
11:52 < fluffypony> yeah if you're on Tor or whatever
11:52 < fluffypony> you have to prove you're not a robot
11:53 < smooth> all those cloudflare tests seem solvable by current AI to me
11:53 < Aleph0> cloudfare has a pow mode
11:53 < fluffypony> choose all of the images that have pictures of ROADS!
11:53 < smooth> click on street signs? seriously?
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11:59 < instagibbs> yeah those are pretty trivial
12:01 < fluffypony> I haven't looked at it, but the Google one that just says "click here to prove you're not a robot" and then ticks it
12:02 < fluffypony> I wonder if that does anything besides check if it can identify you through Google's tracking system or something
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12:06 < gwillen> fluffypony: it does a bunch of stuff
12:06 < gwillen> it runs various tests against your JS interpreter to make sure it seems browser-like
12:07 < gwillen> and I think it also burns a bunch of CPU
12:08 < fluffypony> so easily defeated with PhantomJS then
12:11 < Aleph0> doesnt check against your google profile>
12:11 < Aleph0> ?
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12:20 < tromp_> why does new connection need to request a challenge? can't the challenge just be formed from ip and time and such?
12:21 < fluffypony> tromp_: how does the connecting node know the time of the node it's connecting to?
12:22 < fluffypony> ie. it can precompute a bunch within some time period and the node it's connecting to has to accept it
12:22 < tromp_> it doesn't. it uses it's own time. the one it's connecting to can just refuse if it's too far out of whack
12:23 < fluffypony> so basically then it has to accept all connections as valid as long as the time isn't too far out of whack
12:23 < fluffypony> which defeats the purpose
12:24 < tromp_> no, it only accepts requests with valid pow. but we avoid sending a separate challenge for the pow
12:26 < fluffypony> I guess the upside of that is that the challenge is precomputed, so it doesn't have to maintain an open connection whilst it solves it
12:27 < fluffypony> otoh if we keep it reasonable, say 1 second, then I'm not sure there's advantage to either
12:27 < fluffypony> need to think about it some more
12:29 < smooth> tromp_: what is the advantage you see in not sending a challenge
12:29 < tromp_> saving an extra roudn of communication
12:30 < tromp_> simplifying the protocol
12:31 < smooth> im not sure incorporating IP is simplifying
12:32 < smooth> but i guess i see a benefit in less communcation before verification
12:32 < tromp_> isn't that present already?
12:32 < smooth> not with proxies and such
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12:35 < smooth> tromp_: btw what is the smallest amount of RAM that is feasible to use
12:35 < tromp_> well i expect you can define a challenge in a way that an attacker can't re-use the same challenge for multiple peers
12:36 < fluffypony> you'd have to use both IP addresses and the time, at a minimum
12:36 < smooth> peer identity is not an easy problem. Bitcoin has to takes steps to avoid accidentally connecting to itself
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12:37 < smooth> i think challenge response is likely the least complicted solution here, though maybe the efficiency of reducing communication makes more complication worth it
12:38 < tromp_> cycle verification uses about 3KB of RAM
12:38 < fluffypony> wow that's tiny
12:38 < smooth> tromp_: i mean for solving
12:38 < smooth> i was aware verification was very low
12:38 < tromp_> that's for cycle length 42. now you need a pretty big graph to find such cycles
12:39 < smooth> if it is require to communcicate then it places a lower bound on nodes to function
12:39 < tromp_> but for anti-spam purposes you wouldn't have a single cycle length
12:39 < tromp_> but a range of acceptable lengths, like 16-64
12:39 < tromp_> which should be easy to find for graphs of 64K nodes
12:40 < tromp_> that would take 8KB of RAM to solve
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12:40 < smooth> is there something in the paper on how to set these parameters?
12:41 < tromp_> a little
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12:41 < tromp_> did you read the whole paper?
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12:43 < fluffypony> I just read the intro and conclusion and assumed I knew everything
12:43 < fluffypony> <- true redditor
12:44 < dEBRUYNE> don´t forget the abstract!
12:44 < JackH> harding, you here?
12:45 < smooth> tromp_: i did but it has been a while
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12:49 < Aleph0> timestamp + ip - seem to be easily pre-computable.
12:49 < tromp_> pre computable is fine. we dont want re-usable
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12:53 < fluffypony> Aleph0: you use both IPs, so you can't replay the attack from another node
12:53 < fluffypony> s/attack/connection
12:56 < Aleph0> tromp_: so you precompute 10k or so connections, into the future
12:56 < Aleph0> store them.
12:56 < Aleph0> then immediatetly connect to many many nodes and bring them down.
12:56 < fluffypony> bring them down how?
12:56 < Aleph0> connection flood.
12:56 < Aleph0> it has to be interactive.
12:57 < smooth> you can connection flood regardless of what happens after you connect
12:57 < fluffypony> yeah
12:57 < Aleph0> i still think they should just place bitcoins in escrow.
12:57 < Aleph0> and a significant amount too. that will be a strong deterrent.
12:57 < smooth> Aleph0: how do you do that without a connection?
12:58 < fluffypony> Aleph0: barriers to entry to running a full node aren't great for decentralisation
12:58 < Aleph0> maybe some kind of reputation system
12:58 < Aleph0> built-up over time
12:58 < fluffypony> I think the underlying network needs to be more fluid than that - you can layer identity and trust on top of it
13:00 < Aleph0> its too early  to do that, but if they network becomes much more valuable, it might become necessary to protect at least a set number of nodes, a "backbone" of sorts.
13:01 < Aleph0> with leaves being less restrictive.
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--- Log closed Sat Mar 05 00:00:11 2016