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02:21 < fluffypony> djb's talk on the first 10 years of Curve25519: https://t.co/hOs0LMpF3u
02:21 < fluffypony> https://cr.yp.to/talks/2016.03.09/audio.ogg I mean
02:21 < fluffypony> and slides: https://cr.yp.to/talks/2016.03.09/slides-djb-20160309-a4.pdf
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04:18 < Taek> I had an idea
04:18 < Taek> by destroying a block entirely, you increase the block reward by 250btc spread out over the next 1000 blocks (0.25 btc per block)
04:18 < Taek> if you have >10% hashrate, this makes financial sense - your expected income goes up
04:19 < Taek> but everyone else's expected income goes up too
04:19 < Taek> people with >10% hashrate end up paying all of the expenses for this boost, but everyone benefits
04:19 < Taek> which is a decentralization pressure
04:19 < Taek> of course, then you have an unpredictable inflation rate
04:20 < Taek> and a lot of weird incentives
04:21 < Taek> but maybe there is hope for a more-sane decentralization pressure that operates in a similar
04:21 < Taek> *similar manner
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08:25 < ItsmeeAgainn> Donate me please a new PC)17hKzAXSi6uqGb9hVQFARgrt1HEHamAtua))Sorry and thanks)
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08:28 < fluffypony> ItsmeeAgainn: piss off
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17:02 < bsm1175321> So if one used a form of sequential PoW, with a fixed target, it would basically take everyone (and anyone) the same amount of time to compute it.  (up to factors of ~0.5-2 due to hardware differences)  Such a thing is really not a lottery at all, so requires an incentive mechanism of a very different nature.
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17:50 < bramc> Hey everybody. I'm writing a draft for a BIP for transaction expiration times. It's turning into another freaking essay.
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18:07 < bramc> As per usual there's more technical meat than expected. I'm getting fairly deep into suggested future extensions to SPV
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18:08 < belcher> bramc do they include exposing estimatefee to spv wallets ?
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18:12 < bramc> belcher: I'm not dealing with fee estimation issues here. The SPV extensions are for tracing ancestors.
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18:48 < bramc> You know, rbf transactions have a high potential to break their descendants in a reorg as well.
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19:47 < Taek> bramc: you are including considerations like reorgs? If a reorg occurs, a transaction may suddenly become illegal, meaning that all children are illegal too, accidentally invalidating a whole chain of txns
19:47 < Taek> for that reason, generally OP_BLOCKHEIGHT has been avoided
19:47 < bramc> Taek: Yes I have extensive commentary on that, that's part of why it's basically a full-length essay
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20:08 < bramc> I've got a first draft almost finished (well, the amount I'm going to get finished anyhow, there's no spec in it yet). Should get the last bit done tomorrow. Anybody who'd like me to email it to them when it's done message me.
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20:48 < amiller_> bramc, I think you're right about the PoS construction being amortizable ("malleable"). Hopefully i'm missing something stupid
20:49 < bramc> amiller_: Your mail describes exactly what I was thinking.
20:49 < amiller_> fwiw i'll explain why malleable is the wrong phrase here
20:50 < amiller_> in crypto malleable usually decribes some advantage the attacker gets after seeing honest proofs/responses
20:50 < amiller_> here the problem is something a dishonest prover can do using just his own resources
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20:51 < gmaxwell> I would say, "it is not a strong signature of work"  or "it is not a determinstic signature of work"
20:52 < bramc> Yeah I did an okay job of explaining that in my mail to you which was a bit lucky because I only really articulated that subtlety even to myself as I was typing it.
20:52 < amiller_> "unique" or "canonical" maybe? "unique signature" is a commonly used property
20:52 < amiller_> BLS and RSA are both unique signature schemes, but even "deterministic" DSA is not
20:53 < bramc> I still don't know how to bust the simple approach. Something involving rainbow tables and I assume meeting in the middle.
20:53 < amiller_> bramc, i should have thought about that before, we worked through exactly the same problem with the proof of sequential work paper, like you said
20:54 < amiller_> i think "non-amortizable" is the best term to use
20:54 < bramc> repeated hashing with checkpoints is the clumsy, awful way of fixing the problem in mahmoud's construction. I figured out a much prettier approach but it has the same problem
20:55 < amiller_> http://eprints.qut.edu.au/40036/6/40036-full-revised.pdf for example this is a paper about definitions of proofs-of-work that rags on some existing definitions for not talking about amortization "proofs of amortized difficulty"
20:55 < gmaxwell> amiller_: it's incorrect to call DSA that, it should be called derandomized.  But right unique is the word we want there.
20:55 < amiller_> i see
20:56 < bramc> I've been using the term 'canonical', also 'quickly verifiable'
20:56 < bramc> although 'canonical' doesn't really make sense for proofs of space. It does for spow.
20:58 < bramc> The advantage of spow is that even if an attacker cheats they still have to spend most of the time. The requirements that it be canonical and quickly verifiable are much more onerous.
21:00 < bramc> Krystoff's comments about how my 'fixed' proofs of space approach is busted actually gives me some hope, but it's at the point where I really, really, need to understand how to bust the simple approach to be sure and noone seems forthcoming with an explanation.
21:02 < amiller_> bramc work on a positive proof, or offer a bounty for a negative counterexample :p
21:03 < bramc> Not sure what you mean. Supposedly it's a fairly textbook algorithm but I'm not sure what it's called and it's highly nontrivial (as in, I've spent some time on it and can't find it)
21:07 < bramc> Krystoff was nice enough to mention that the time and space are both n^(2/3) a hint which doesn't really give it away.
21:11 < bramc> Maybe that should be CPU and space
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21:46 < bramc> Apparently asking about nontrivial algorithms is a really bad way to troll
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23:03 < Taek> bsm1175321: I took your braids idea and applied it to transactions-only POW: http://slides.com/davidvorick/braids#/
23:04 < Taek> I think that the above idea has a lot of potential, and I would appreciate it if some more experienced people could ACK or NACK the concepts
23:05 < Taek> I think the idea has the potential to eliminate a substantial amount of centralization pressure, and also suffers far less from selfish mining attacks than anything else that's available
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23:10 < bramc> Taek: That should be an extreme version of braids where you've limited the block size to only allow a single transaction. There will still be incentive for mining alone even if there are no 'real' transactions to be had, and it will make the transaction history a bit bigger due to having so much more headers overhead
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23:11 < bramc> Taek: The big problem with decentralizing PoW is that some people have access to cheaper power. That's causing the centralization more than the hardware is.
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--- Log closed Tue Mar 15 00:00:00 2016