--- Log opened Tue Mar 15 00:00:00 2016 00:00 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwcppmpljiywufkc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:05 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@90.201.51.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:22 -!- crossing-styx [~crossing-@c-67-165-86-109.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:24 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 00:25 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:29 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:43 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- JackH [~Jack@node-229.229.197.213.domino-ict.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:58 -!- Don_John [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:14 -!- JackH [~Jack@ip4da44de3.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:29 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zavvtmfjrfpzthij] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:33 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:34 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01 < gmaxwell> Taek: I haven't loaded the url; but generall TX POW idea have previously had horiffic problems with progress. 02:02 < gmaxwell> e.g. the single party with the most POW would win every time. 02:04 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-248-207.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:20 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-gmvkzazsnynvcnty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26 -!- supasonic [~supasonic@172-11-188-117.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:30 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:30 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:33 -!- fkhan_ [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-wvlgfkksgmhtsmig] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:37 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:43 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:57 < Taek> gmaxwell: I don't think that's the case here. Miners build multiple branches of txns, and then are allowed merge them by pointing to multiple parents. During a merge, the full POW of both branches is counted, which means heavily merged branches will be able to keep up. 02:58 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c303:6cd0:1f6:85ec:5ebb:3c39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:05 -!- jtimon [~quassel@35.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:06 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@2601:547:c303:6cd0:449b:111b:6de8:e61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:30 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:31 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:34 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:35 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:47 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:01 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:08 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:15 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:16 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:27 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:33 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@90.201.51.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:36 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:38 < amiller_> bramc, ahh the response from spacemint is really good... they do deal with that attack, by requiring a commitment to all the space put in the blockchain in advance 04:40 < amiller_> and only one commitment allowed per 'seed' public key 04:41 < amiller_> hmmm..... if that fixes the amortizing problem for space proofs, is there a way to do something similar for how we want to use proof-of-sequential-work? 04:42 -!- p15x [~p15x@c-73-35-160-119.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:01 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:03 -!- _rht [uid86914@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jmkjvorjtwsmtkdm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 05:07 < Taek> amiller_: can you link to the spacemint response? 05:11 -!- p15x [~p15x@c-73-35-160-119.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@94.119.64.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:30 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:30 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:31 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 < amiller_> Taek, basically it's explained in page 9, "why add commitments to the chain?" https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/528.pdf 05:32 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:32 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has quit [Client Quit] 05:35 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:37 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38 -!- cfields_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/cfields] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38 -!- coryfields [~quassel@162.209.96.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:44 < proslogion> hi, how do you really unlock outputs with a compact SPV proof? I meant how do you write the scripts? thanks 05:47 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-122-14-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:54 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:56 -!- Iriez [xbins@distribution.xbins.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:02 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:03 -!- AusteritySucks [~Austerity@unaffiliated/austeritysucks] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:bd56:1dda:6191:54d8] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:10 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@2601:645:c001:263a:300e:ad73:afc6:1ebc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:10 -!- laurentmt 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Anywhere.] 14:58 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 14:59 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@pool-108-16-231-242.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:00 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03 -!- everyBloc [~everybloc@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:03 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Client Quit] 15:08 -!- everyBlo_ [~everybloc@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:09 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@128-79-141-196.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 15:10 -!- everyBloc [~everybloc@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:15 -!- Guest80236 [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:15 -!- Guest80236 [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:15 -!- Guest80236 is now known as amiller 15:19 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:31 -!- iLearn [~ilearn@h-219-171.a240.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:44 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48 -!- nabu [~nabu@192.40.88.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:50 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50 -!- everyBlo_ [~everybloc@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:b1f8:fb4:be1f:8436] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@203.0.153.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@203.0.153.9] has quit [Changing host] 16:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- phiche [~Adium@37.250.44.146.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09 < gmaxwell> Can people other than me cluestick this person: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.msg14208549#msg14208549 16:09 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 < gmaxwell> he's in "no one but you mode", so further responses from me will not be productive. 16:10 < MRL-Relay> [othe] I´ve thrown my btctalk account away after a discussion with annoymint. 16:10 < gmaxwell> [othe] I can understand that completely. 16:12 < fluffypony> lol 16:14 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:14 < gmaxwell> I've banned him from the technical subforum under several names; I'm sorry to hear that I was too slow to keep you around. 16:16 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dyoywxbqpqoydygd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 < fluffypony> oooh you even got a response from the King of the Supernetzzz 16:18 < TD-Linux> gmaxwell, well I can run a benchmark on my apple II if you like :) 16:18 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@c-98-234-63-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18 < fluffypony> kanzure: how do you only have 8 btct posts in 2.5 years? 16:19 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- e0 [~e0@c-66-30-116-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:23 < gmaxwell> yet another person who believes in globally synchronous networks. 16:23 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@rrcs-67-78-44-203.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24 -!- Don_John_ [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: we should sync the mempool, that'll solve it! :-P 16:26 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 -!- Don_John [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:27 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Client Quit] 16:28 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 -!- Church_ [~hatter@ool-44c6a18a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:29 -!- Church- [~hatter@unaffiliated/church-] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30 < GAit> fluffypony: i only have 186 with account from February, 2013 16:33 -!- CodeShar_ [~textual@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:33 -!- CodeShar_ [~textual@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:41 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44 -!- everyBloc [~everybloc@c-73-158-140-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:46 -!- Don_John_ [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:46 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-5.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:48 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-5.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- johnwhitton [~johnwhitt@c-71-202-223-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:08 < bsm1175321> Taek: nice! 17:10 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:11 < bsm1175321> I've thought a lot about mining single transactions as a means of mining decentralization. In particular, that the tx signature cover a PoW hash, so that only the tx creator can mine it. But then where does the block reward go? To tx aggregators? 17:11 < bsm1175321> I've got a bit of work left to do on my paper, but I'll push my python code so you can play with incentive models. 17:13 < bsm1175321> The problem I'm still wrestling with is that the complexity of the reward algorithm is naively O(n^3) (n=size of cohort) because of the need to find a common ancestor and descendant of every tx, so that the reward punishes block withholding. So, it's necessary to keep the cohorts small-ish or use a simpler reward algorithm. 17:17 < bsm1175321> Taek: Couple more comments: (1) Why not point to all known (non-conflicting) tips with your new tx? Why prioritize any (or omit any?) Pointing to all tips puts the maximum work behind your tx. 17:21 < bsm1175321> (2) I don't understand your arguments about ordering and reorgs. There's no need to put a total ordering on transactions. The notion of a cohort defines a total ordering (and an analog to blocks) -- this is probably not obvious, need to publish it. (A cohort is defined as a set of tx's such that for ALL tx's in the cohort, they are ALL descendants of the previous cohort and ancestors of the next cohort). 17:22 < bsm1175321> There are a couple of other equivalent definitions. (For example, take siblings-of-siblings until you have a stable set -- think I used this definition in my talk) 17:23 -!- funkenstein_ [~bowler@unaffiliated/funkenstein] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24 < bsm1175321> (3) Reorgs should only be caused by double-spends or other conflicting transactions. Allocate the block reward by looking in the past far enough that you've seen all possible txs. Bitcoin reorgs are caused because each miner creates his own coinbase txn, and this is a kind of double-spend that causes otherwise identical blocks to conflict. By allocating the coinbase later, there are no reorgs unless there are d 17:29 -!- Don_John [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:30 < bsm1175321> And now I'm kind of lost about mid-way through your slides, I think our ideas have diverged. 17:33 -!- Don_John_ [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:35 -!- Don_John_ [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:36 -!- Don_John [~Don@ip72-211-182-139.tc.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:36 -!- funkenstein_ [~bowler@ks3100825.kimsufi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:36 -!- funkenstein_ is now known as Guest68039 17:42 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:44 -!- proslogion [~proslogio@90.199.33.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46 -!- Guest68039 [~bowler@ks3100825.kimsufi.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:46 -!- Guest68039 [~bowler@unaffiliated/funkenstein] has joined 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