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04:29 < TheIdea> I've just come up with a proof of "existance" for my project. I have no clue how this could be expressed as code.
04:29 < TheIdea> I base it on how I belive reality works
04:30 < TheIdea> when a user joins the system value of X coins are created and then spread to all user equally
04:30 < TheIdea> but their existance is bound to the existance of the user
04:30 < TheIdea> if that user is removed for whatever reason
04:31 < TheIdea> the coins are removed
04:31 < TheIdea> the users existance is only approved if other users acknowledge the user existance
04:32 < TheIdea> is this something?
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04:37 < fluffypony> TheIdea: easy to Sybil attack, just create thousands of sock-puppet accounts all verifying each other
04:42 < TheIdea> you forget the approving of others
04:42 < TheIdea> if it is a fake account it is blocked
04:42 < TheIdea> removed the cones have no value ar non existant
04:42 < TheIdea> coins
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04:46 < TheIdea> there is a human component that makes sure that doesnt happen
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04:51 < TheIdea> there is a proof of work component but the difference is that it's kind of a users profile things he has done that make people want to aknowledge his existance
04:51 < TheIdea> +c
04:52 < nsh> the existence and uniqueness and consistent tracking of human actors is not the purview of the network
04:52 < nsh> i think it would be both very hard to make it so, and almost certainly counterproductive to other objectives of the network
04:52 < nsh> but it'd be interesting to be wrong about that
04:52 < TheIdea> would have to be tested
04:53 < TheIdea> it could start of in an test environment
04:53 < TheIdea> like game
04:53 < nsh> feel free to write up the notes for the idea somewhere in fully-formed sentences that you can link to :)
04:53 < TheIdea> off
04:53 < nsh> not one word at a time on irc please
04:53 < TheIdea> I have
04:53 < TheIdea> oh not here sec
04:54 < TheIdea> http://sandboiler.tigrimigri.com/
04:54 < nsh> ty
04:54 < TheIdea> sry Im bad at writing
04:54 < TheIdea> scatterbrain XD
04:57 < fluffypony> TheIdea: doesn't matter about "the others"
04:57 < fluffypony> I am a real person
04:57 < fluffypony> I can collude with nsh and a few others to approve a bunch of fake accounts
04:58 < nsh> i already started colluding by myself in the hopes you're say that
04:58 < nsh> *you'd
04:58 < fluffypony> there we go
05:09 < TheIdea> yes but then you just have a bunch of accounts
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05:09 < TheIdea> you still need to create content and make other bleive that what you did is genuine
05:09 < TheIdea> believe
05:10 < TheIdea> I still need to implement a feature currently is just reputation
05:10 < TheIdea> but I could call it something else
05:11 < TheIdea> even if you collaborate with many others it might not be enough and the work to immense and the reward too low to do so
05:12 < TheIdea> that's kind of what I'm trying to accomplish as protection
05:12 < TheIdea> too
05:12 < fluffypony> content creation is easy, you can just run articles through a spinner
05:13 < fluffypony> and remember, there's this army of sockpuppets that will approve the content
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05:14 < fluffypony> TheIdea: I think spend some time understanding what a Sybil attack is and how it relates to your idea
05:14 < fluffypony> barriers to entry like "must create content" or "other people in the network must approve" are trivially overcome
05:15 < TheIdea> yes I will
05:16 < TheIdea> even if they are overcome if found out the account is removed and needs to user hast to start over
05:16 < TheIdea> -needs
05:16 < TheIdea> -t
05:17 < TheIdea> a ground concept is that it is dynamically changable to addapt to corruption attepts
05:17 < TheIdea> but resticted to the users approval
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05:20 < TheIdea> well but since original creator(s) are always accredited that is found out at some point
05:20 < TheIdea> and since the votes are dynamically changeable one can get kicked out
05:22 < TheIdea> if someone creates fake content and people love that fake content he deserves a good reputation
05:22 < TheIdea> with the risk that if found out he looses all of it
05:22 < nsh> i think you need to start with technical reality and word towards positive feelygoody system properties, not the other way around
05:23 < nsh> *work
05:23 < TheIdea> I'm sorry I dont follow
05:23 < nsh> because mathematics is only really plastic/malleable to a certain extent
05:23 < nsh> you may have desired properties that simply cannot be trivially achieved or cannot be achieved at all given certain unchangable facts
05:24 < nsh> such as that the system is decentralised, without a hierarchical trust structure, must be resistant to DoS and spam, has to avoid generation of specially empowered groups where possible, etc.
05:24 < nsh> all of these things constrain what is possible to an incredible extent
05:24 < TheIdea> true
05:25 < TheIdea> but it has a dynamic hirachical structure
05:25 < TheIdea> +e
05:25 < nsh> as an analogy, you can design engines neglecting the unavoidable laws of thermodynamics
05:25 < nsh> but history shows that people tend to entertain all kinds of unphysical ambitions when they do so, and dream up endless variations on impossible perpetual motion devices
05:26 < nsh> and that's just one thing that people should have known was impossible for centuries before a consensus emerged on why exactly
05:26 < nsh> and how exactly why it's impossible constructively helps make engines and mechanical devices that are possible, and make the more efficient, and make them more resiliant
05:26 < nsh> *them
05:27 < nsh> or as sherlock would put it, you first must eliminate the impossible
05:28 < nsh> (the complementary moral hazard there is that sometimes conversely impossibility is asssumed when with a clever weakening of requirements, possibility emerges. which is what happened with bitcoin itself and the byzantine general's problem)
05:28 < TheIdea> I don't believe in impossibilities only in a lack of understanding and thus defining it as impossibility
05:28 < nsh> groovy :)
05:29 < TheIdea> I'm aware that my project has big problems
05:29 < TheIdea> that's whyt I'm trying to talk about it
05:29 < TheIdea> -t
05:30  * nsh nods
05:30 < TheIdea> change it evolve it find others to work together on it
05:30 < TheIdea> it's nothing I'd make alone
05:30 < TheIdea> but I think it is the right direction
05:30 < TheIdea> to a global problem
05:31 < nsh> maybe try aiming for something you can make alone. when that can be demonstrated to have value, then it is more likely that collaborators will be drawn to work on it
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05:31 < TheIdea> one that threatens humanitys survival
05:31 < nsh> aiming for the moon is very ambitious
05:31 < TheIdea> well I don't think Im alone
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05:31 < TheIdea> I just have to fid a way to get ppl interested
05:31 < TheIdea> find
05:32 < nsh> interest doesn't solve problems, understanding does
05:32 < TheIdea> but interest give motivation
05:32 < nsh> people have been interested in not being hungry for 100 billion years, that didn't invent fertilizers
05:32 < nsh> it took people being systematic in the explanation and testing of reality
05:32 < TheIdea> and motivation to understand things
05:33 < nsh> an tonne of motivation is not worth an gram of rigour
05:33 < nsh> :)
05:33 < TheIdea> motivation is the origin of everything
05:33 < nsh> well, not we're talking philosophy and off-topic. good luck :)
05:34 < nsh> *now
05:34 < TheIdea> sry
05:34 < TheIdea> I tend to do that
05:34 < TheIdea> my thought a very jumpy
05:34 < TheIdea> +s
05:35 < TheIdea> I'm kind of not interested in anything I can do alone
05:35 < TheIdea> one person cannot safe humanity from destrying itself
05:35 < TheIdea> +o
05:38 < nsh> one may not be able to bail out the ship alone, but one can start by making a strong effort to understand buckets :)
05:39 < TheIdea> Well Im already doing that
05:39 < TheIdea> I'm sadly not very fast
05:40 < TheIdea> and easily misunderstood when conveying information
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05:42 < TheIdea> I've been told that my system is weak against sybil attacks before and thus have looked them up but I kind of fail to see why. Either because I lack knowledge or because I can't describe my sytem well or both.
05:42 < TheIdea> I'll harder to understand though
05:43 < TheIdea> some pointers would be nice though
05:43 < TheIdea> +work
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06:21 < fluffypony> TheIdea: "if found out the account is removed" - who removes it?
06:21 < fluffypony> or more bluntly: who is the policeman that decides on the removal?
06:22 < fluffypony> because there's your central point of failure already
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07:59 < TheIdea> it's solved like in real live ppl are voted into a postion and bound by a contract
07:59 < TheIdea> life
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08:03 < TheIdea> Ill be afk for a while
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08:14 < fluffypony> TheIdea: voting in "real life" only works because the people are physically present
08:15 < fluffypony> and even then you can still Sybil attack voting systems by having someone present themselves with a fake ID document
08:15 < fluffypony> voting in decentralised systems simply doesn't work, as you have no way of verifying whether the person sitting behind the screen is a real person or not
08:16 < TheIdea> I'll have to visualize my system next
08:16 < TheIdea> it's hard to explain how everything works together
08:16 < fluffypony> about the closest application we have that tried to prove existence was PGP / GPG
08:16 < fluffypony> where creating identities is free, but you aren't trusted by default
08:17 < TheIdea> yea my system is similar
08:17 < fluffypony> you need to meet someone face-to-face and they would physically sign your key
08:17 < fluffypony> so you know what happened
08:17 < fluffypony> we used to have "key signing parties"
08:17 < TheIdea> with an  proof of work and vouching
08:17 < fluffypony> in the 90
08:17 < fluffypony> *90s
08:17 < fluffypony> when we thought we were cool
08:17 < fluffypony> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Keysigning_party.jpg
08:18 < TheIdea> lol nice
08:18 < fluffypony> people would stop verifying documents after a few beers, and would sign everyone's key
08:18 < fluffypony> the entire thing fell apart and is now basically useless for verifying identity
08:18 < fluffypony> (verifying real-world identity, I mean)
08:18 < TheIdea> tahts why I implement work of proof
08:19 < TheIdea> I jsut don;t like how bitcoin does it
08:19 < fluffypony> proof of work doesn't prevent anything
08:19 < fluffypony> you're conflating two mechanisms
08:19 < TheIdea> but it gives credibility
08:19 < fluffypony> no it doesn't
08:19 < TheIdea> why not?
08:19 < fluffypony> it makes it expensive for a malicious system to attack another system
08:20 < fluffypony> it doesn't prevent humans from being bought or beaten or tricked into doing something
08:20 < TheIdea> and gives credibility depending on the work done
08:20 < TheIdea> that will never be fixed
08:20 < fluffypony> what work? who's doing it?
08:20 < TheIdea> but a better damage control can be set in place
08:20 < TheIdea> the user that registered
08:21 < TheIdea> does the work himself
08:21 < TheIdea> like in real life
08:21 < TheIdea> it's not like the blockchain
08:21 < fluffypony> you've suggested content creation, but that's trivially cheated
08:21 < fluffypony> besides
08:21 < fluffypony> let's say the work is truly hard
08:22 < fluffypony> like "tow a tractor from Cape Town to Johannesburg"
08:22 < fluffypony> all I do is go to some people in Johannesburg and pay them $100 each to verify that I did the work
08:22 < TheIdea> sure and if found out the whole network is discredited
08:22 < fluffypony> the system won't know that I've done that, because I pay them out-of-band
08:23 < fluffypony> how would you find out?
08:23 < TheIdea> good question
08:23 < fluffypony> and, too, by the time I've scammed everyone out of thousands of $ do I really care?
08:23 < TheIdea> that depends
08:24 < TheIdea> you might need a proof of identity to trade with ppl
08:24 < fluffypony> there will always be people that can be bought off, and people will die and I can take their identity over
08:24 < TheIdea> yes
08:25 < TheIdea> it it will always happen
08:25 < TheIdea> and
08:25 < TheIdea> that's why I try to create a dyunamically changable system
08:25 < TheIdea> -u
08:25 < fluffypony> so then it's centralised
08:25 < TheIdea> that adapts to attacks
08:26 < TheIdea> nope it's an decentralized sytem that adapts
08:26 < TheIdea> but inside the sytem there is space for centralized sytems
08:26 < fluffypony> so everyone has to be in agreement within this decentralised system
08:26 < TheIdea> yes
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08:26 < TheIdea> or at least >50%
08:27 < fluffypony> 50% of the nodes?
08:27 < TheIdea> with failsafe that a user needs to understand the risks of a change
08:27 < TheIdea> no 50% of the users
08:27 < fluffypony> so then I just create thousands of fake accounts
08:27 < fluffypony> and we refuse your changes
08:27 < TheIdea> you can't
08:28 < TheIdea> cant
08:28 < fluffypony> of course I can
08:28 < TheIdea> account creation is slow
08:28 < fluffypony> I will go pay people out of band to verify my accounts
08:28 < TheIdea> and has many hurdels to the point that it is not rentable
08:28 < fluffypony> and then I will own more than 50% of the accounts
08:28 < fluffypony> and those accounts will verify new accounts I create
08:28 < fluffypony> I can do that at a faster rate than legitimate people will sign up
08:29 < fluffypony> and I will trick legitimate people into verifying things
08:29 < fluffypony> through phishing attacks and simple forgetfulness
08:29 < TheIdea> like i said Ill have to visualize this
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08:29 < fluffypony> I will constantly be more than 80% of the userbase, and I will reject all adaptations to prevent the attacks
08:30 < TheIdea> not really
08:30 < TheIdea> you can't have that many positionbs
08:30 < TheIdea> b
08:30 < fluffypony> of course I can, what prevents it?
08:30 < fluffypony> nothing you've suggested thus far prevents me from growing my sock-puppet base faster than legitimate users are onboarded
08:30 < TheIdea> Ill list the hurdles
08:31 < TheIdea> its in my docs and I'll have to visualize it
08:31 < TheIdea> first of all simple bot check, then X ammount of users are rendomly notified that a new user wants to join
08:32 < TheIdea> users can decline or accept to interview the new user
08:32 < TheIdea> if they accept they will be rewarded by the sytem
08:32 < fluffypony> what's your acceptance threshold - 10 interviews?
08:32 < TheIdea> but vouch with their own reputation
08:32 < TheIdea> maybe depends on what the community decides on
08:33 < fluffypony> (also as an aside, I'd like to point out that the harder it is to get onto a system the less likely that it's ever used by anybody)
08:33 < TheIdea> then you have empty accounts that have 0 influence
08:33 < fluffypony> so I go find people with influence and buy them off, or just beat a few of them with a pole so that they "interview" my new account
08:33 < TheIdea> thats the good thing it's doesn;t have to its dynamically changable
08:34 < TheIdea> +e
08:34 < TheIdea> they cant they are randomly chosen
08:34 < TheIdea> worldwide
08:34 < fluffypony> well at the begining you only have 5 people on
08:34 < fluffypony> and I'm creating my sock puppets from the beginning
08:35 < TheIdea> you'll be foud out fast then
08:35 < TheIdea> found
08:35 < fluffypony> how, I can easily run 3 accounts in parallel
08:35 < fluffypony> with different writing styles, and lots of content creation
08:35 < TheIdea> but you still need to create that proof of work
08:35 < TheIdea> and get that validated
08:35 < fluffypony> so I use Fiverr for that
08:35 < fluffypony> I can manage hundreds of accounts just by offloading the work
08:36 < TheIdea> jsut because you add work it doesn't mean taht it get validated
08:36 < TheIdea> you need to ad proof and gain vouchers
08:36 < fluffypony> my work is genuine
08:36 < TheIdea> add
08:36 < fluffypony> so I'll be adding proof
08:36 < fluffypony> and gaining vouchers
08:37 < fluffypony> I'm just not the one actually doing the work
08:37 < TheIdea> taht ok the sytem as groups
08:37 < TheIdea> has
08:37 < TheIdea> you dont have to
08:37 < TheIdea> if they accept that you own that work
08:38 < TheIdea> but you'll be trouble if they join the system and give proof that you were scamming
08:38 < TheIdea> in
08:38 < fluffypony> what proof can they possibly give
08:38 < fluffypony> I have a basement with 20 labourers locked inside, who do all the work for me
08:39 < TheIdea> the same proof that is accepted by courts
08:40 < TheIdea> we are nearing Schrödinger's cat
08:40 < fluffypony> no we're not
08:40 < fluffypony> not by a long shot
08:41 < fluffypony> you're designing a system that presumes millions of users
08:41 < TheIdea> nobody will know if you have 20 ppl working for you in the basement until someone finds out
08:41 < fluffypony> nobody will find out
08:41 < TheIdea> it is your work then
08:41 < TheIdea> and nobody can do anything against that
08:41 < fluffypony> well, me and my 15 sock puppet accounts
08:41 < TheIdea> not in my sytem nor in another
08:41 < fluffypony> and I can scale it up from there
08:41 < TheIdea> +s
08:42 < TheIdea> but those accounts are not human
08:42 < fluffypony> prove it
08:42 < fluffypony> you give them a work challenge, they deliver
08:42 < fluffypony> they produce content
08:42 < TheIdea> they only create the work you created
08:42 < fluffypony> they interact with other people
08:42 < fluffypony> to all intents and purposes they appear to be legitimate people
08:42 < Taek> Human as defined how? Once you have enough Sybils, the Sybil accounts can decide what counts as human. Suddenly, they are deciding that legit humans are actually fake. And then they get a stranglehold
08:43 < TheIdea> you will have created an ai that is consicious then
08:43 < TheIdea> I would count it as a legitimate human beeing
08:43 < fluffypony> it's not an AI at all
08:43 < fluffypony> it's some automation, but mostly cheap manual labour
08:43 < fluffypony> Mechanical Turk
08:44 < TheIdea> where is the interaction?
08:44 < fluffypony> I farm the interaction off
08:44 < TheIdea> from other users?
08:44 < fluffypony> no, my basement with 20 people locked inside
08:45 < TheIdea> you  are confusing me are the 20 people in the basement real people or bots?
08:45 < fluffypony> real people
08:45 < fluffypony> that control 5000 accounts
08:45 < fluffypony> with the help of automation
08:46 < TheIdea> that will be very hard work to create blievable accounts
08:46 < TheIdea> and one mistake and the whole network is removed
08:47 < fluffypony> nonsense, every conversation is real
08:47 < fluffypony> and those 5000 accounts don't all trust each other
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08:47 < fluffypony> they're thinly connected, but they have connections with real people outside of the network
08:47 < TheIdea> between 10 users? Using 5000 accounts how?
08:47 < fluffypony> how often do you think prolific Redditors use the site?
08:47 < TheIdea> even if you mix in real people
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08:48 < Taek> TheIdea: the problem is that you've defined this concept of 'human' without fully specifying how to tell whether something is human.
08:48 < fluffypony> you can average it out to 10 minutes a day, and with the right leverage you can appear to be a prolific Redditor
08:48 < Taek> And more importantly, you haven't considered all the ways that it can be cheated
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08:48 < fluffypony> so if my 20 people work 8 hours a day, they can appear to be 1000 people
08:48 < TheIdea> that's why Im discussing it
08:48 < Taek> instead of hand-waving, try to come up with something exact, that would know how to code up, and then ask yourself, if I was trying to cheat the system, what are the things I could do?
08:49 < TheIdea> that would take years if I had to do that alone
08:49 < TheIdea> probably 5 to 10
08:49 < Taek> TheIdea: it would probably take years even if you had help
08:50 < TheIdea> at least Id have help from smart ppl then
08:50 < TheIdea> I'm kinda still not convinced that my system would be that easy to trick
08:51 < TheIdea> I'll have to think hard about this
08:51 < Taek> (except, we are telling you that the idea won't work no matter how many years you put into it)
08:51 < TheIdea> thats why its dynamic
08:51 < TheIdea> and can be changed
08:51 < TheIdea> there is an answer it just hasn't been found yet
08:51 < Taek> that is not a solution lol
08:51 < fluffypony> lol
08:51 < TheIdea> why not?
08:52 < TheIdea> life itself works that way
08:52 < TheIdea> we procreate and our offsprings adapt to the environment
08:52 < fluffypony> because people are physically present!!
08:52 < fluffypony> life works because it's outside of the Internet
08:53 < fluffypony> you can't replicate that online precisely because of Sybil attacks
08:53 < Taek> life has a very robust foundation
08:53 < TheIdea> and we can use the concept to recreate something that might work on the www
08:53 < fluffypony> TheIdea: I want to ask you something - do you think you're the first person to try and do that?
08:53 < TheIdea> well as last resort everyone could just be indentified
08:53 < Taek> have you tried cutting yourself? You heal pretty quickly because there are 10,000,000 things working together to make sure you can survive something like a cut
08:54 < Taek> have you tried pulling a function out of a codebase? Disaster! Modern code isn't self healing
08:54 < TheIdea> that shouldn't stop us from trying to create it
08:54 < TheIdea> hopefully many
08:54 < Taek> TheIdea: well, now you've found yourself a project that's much more ambitious than your original idea
08:54 < TheIdea> did I?
08:55 < Taek> lol yes, robust code is not easy to write, especially if you are expecting it to adapt to its environment
08:55 < TheIdea> Im not
08:55 < TheIdea> thats the job of the devs
08:55 < TheIdea> code doesnt write itself
08:56 < Taek> uh, and the devs don't work for free?
08:56 < TheIdea> nope they get paid by the sytem
08:56 < TheIdea> if they want to
08:56 < Taek> that would imply that 'the system' has been built
08:56 < TheIdea> yes
08:56 < Taek> who pays the devs to build the system?
08:56 < TheIdea> those that want the sytem to be created
08:56 < Taek> so you :P
08:57 < TheIdea> and those that decide to create the system
08:57 < TheIdea> it's not something I'm gonna create if Im alone with this
08:57 < TheIdea> I want to it to evolve
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08:58 < TheIdea> day by day it's taking on a better shape
08:58 < TheIdea> you guys are a huge influence
08:58 < TheIdea> thx a lot
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08:59 < Taek> you are welcome, but for what it's worth I think you should spend a lot more time researching adversarial systems, byzantine systems, and the various types of attacks that exist
08:59 < TheIdea> I will
09:00 < TheIdea> it's noted and will be researched
09:00 < Taek> +1
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09:00 < TheIdea> ^-^
09:00 < fluffypony> and Nash equilibrium
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09:03 < TheIdea> Next step is gonna be that visualisation
09:04 < TheIdea> that will hopefully help to understand and shape the sytem into something usefull
09:09 < bsm1175321> Theldea: I think tying meatspace-identity to network identity is ultimately counterproductive.  There are lots of good reasons for each human to have multiple network identities and accounts: software agents, corporations, risk mitigation, etc.
09:10 < bsm1175321> Most of us have multiple email accounts, one for spammy usage and one for real usage, for instance.  This kind of separation is good and necessary on any network.
09:11 < TheIdea> you can still have different accounts in my system
09:11 < bsm1175321> In a financial context, there's no reason for me to reveal my investments through my coffee purchasing habits, for instance.
09:11 < Taek> I'm personally of the opinion that a strong decentralized identity/reputation system would be a fantastic thing, but I also think that there's absolutely no reason that an identity should be pegged to something in meatspace. Whether or not a thing is human doesn't matter if it is legitimately enriching your life
09:12 < TheIdea> also the profile is just a space to link to other systems
09:12 < TheIdea> it won;t replace email etc.
09:12 < Taek> but I also think that we are not very close to reliable decentralized reputation
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09:12 < TheIdea> jsut tun parallel to that
09:12 < bsm1175321> What about a software agent, that legitimately acts on behalf of multiple people?
09:13 < bsm1175321> Frankly, being identified in meatspace is a serious risk, and I generally seek to avoid it in (some of) my online interactoins.
09:13 < TheIdea> run
09:13 < TheIdea> tahts what IM trying toc reate
09:13 < TheIdea> create
09:14 < TheIdea> something where you can be anon but still have credibility
09:14 < TheIdea> ok I have lots of stuff to do
09:14 < bsm1175321> "reputation" is generally risk evaluation, and is fuzzy, probabilistic, and different people will rightfully come to different conclusions about "reputation".  Fuzzy, probabalistic things should not be represented as fact in a distributed system.
09:14 < TheIdea> plz let me work on the visal first
09:15 < TheIdea> it's called reputation but its more proof of work
09:15 < TheIdea> Im kinda exausted
09:15 < TheIdea> lets talk another time
09:16 < TheIdea> I've been on it all day now
09:16 < Taek> bsm1175321: there's no reason you'd need to represent it as fact. It might be sufficient to have a web-of-trust sort of thing were you've pegged trust values to various identities and then you can see what they think of various things
09:16 < TheIdea> @taek that is my aim
09:17 < TheIdea> well Im off now I've fav the channel so Ill be around
09:17 < bsm1175321> Taek: it may not be in a person's interest to allow aggregation of such information about himself.
09:17 < TheIdea> I'd love to talk more about this soon
09:18 < bsm1175321> And it's a risk if adversaries can see it.
09:18 < Taek> you have to share information at some point
09:18 < Taek> it's how socialzation works
09:19 < TheIdea> damn it
09:19 < TheIdea> you can choose who you share waht  informatio with
09:19 < TheIdea> it's not viewable by everyone
09:19 < Taek> TheIdea: this channel is logged you can always read the stuff you've missed
09:19 < TheIdea> it more about em participating
09:19 < TheIdea> me
09:19 < TheIdea> XD
09:20 < bsm1175321> I'm actually working on an "identity" system.  It does have such attestations, but it's up to the target/person the attestation is about to prove that the attestation is true and applies to them, if that's in their interest.
09:20 < bsm1175321> e.g. demonstrating a letter of credit from your bank vs. indiscriminate data aggregation by "credit agencies".
09:21 < bsm1175321> I'd like to destroy the latter, but the former is necessary.
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09:42 < TheIdea> I just realized what if the reputation is group based
09:42 < TheIdea> That is doesn't work in the root system
09:42 < TheIdea> it
09:43 < TheIdea> it
09:44 < TheIdea> but then you would have to choose starting group and be bound to it
09:44 < TheIdea> maybe just as an option
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09:52 < fluffypony> oh so like default trust on Bitcointalk
09:52 < fluffypony> because that worked so well
09:52 < fluffypony> :-P
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10:34 < waxwing> so with a schnorr M of M, imagining it scaling to large M in a bitcoin context; you'd still need to publish all the pubkeys wouldn't you?
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10:36 < waxwing> or ... hmm, you consider the 'pubkey' as the sum of pubkeys? somehow that confuses me in terms of implementation. but, i guess it works..
10:43 < Eliel> waxwing: yes, the pubkey in the tx will be a sum of the actual pubkeys.
10:44 < waxwing> Eliel: yes it changes the model a bit, i'm just watching the vid on this topic from gmaxwell and he's pointing out that it removes accountability. a lot of fiddly subtle details here.
10:45 < Eliel> waxwing: yes, there's a lot of subtlety involved.
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10:50 < waxwing> also in the slides it says "direct Schnorr requires an additional round to agree on the nonce either at sign time or in advance"; i don't understand this - each party can send their nonce point to the next, surely (along with their sig value)?
10:51 < waxwing> from https://people.xiph.org/~greg/gmaxwell_sfbitcoin_2015_04_20.pdf (slide 19 i think)
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11:18 < maaku> waxwing: it's not safe to sign until everyone else has committed to a nonce
11:18 < maaku> because the public key i could be advertizing is (p & -q)
11:19 < maaku> er, p + -q
11:19 < maaku> if p is one I have and q is one you have
11:21 < maaku> hence the intermediate step of signing your nonce, which proves you have the secrets which compose your public key
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11:31 < waxwing> maaku: thanks, i see. you could effectively remove the need for someone's permission by literally cancelling them for the equation. so one extra round trip, which is quite an annoyance.
11:31 < waxwing> i guess it would be different if they were long term attested-to pubkeys? but then that's not the bitcoin scenario.
11:38 < johnwhitton> Hi all, here’s a process question I’m trying to understand
11:38 < waxwing> i think the reason this construction interests me so much is that it feels wrong intuitively that you can get effectively infinite scaling with no space cost. so something wrong with my intuition :)
11:40 < johnwhitton> So I’m looking at segwit https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/01/26/segwit-benefits/ and understand that this may be a precursor for lightning networks https://lightning.network/
11:42 < johnwhitton> What I’m trying to work out is who authored the segwit document and is anybody coding this right now, and if so how would it be a fork from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
11:42 < johnwhitton> Basically I’m trying to get an understanding of who’s working on segwit and how far along it is
11:45 < fluffypony> johnwhitton: it's been in Elements Alpha since June last year
11:45 < fluffypony> but as a hard fork version
11:45 < fluffypony> and it's been "done" and in testing since December
11:46 < johnwhitton> Thanks fluffypony and pigeons
11:46 < johnwhitton> pigeons:  also pointed me to the #segwit-dev channel
11:47 < johnwhitton> fluffypony: Do you have a link to the repo on gihub?
11:48 < fluffypony> no I don't, but #segwit-dev will be able to assist you further
11:49 < johnwhitton> fluffypony: Thanks I’ll head over there :)
11:49 < fluffypony> :)
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13:02 < nsh> maaku, doesn't sipa's hash-then-add construction remove the concern of adversarial nonce choice by other parties?
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15:43 < maaku> nsh: maybe; i'm not familiar with that construction
15:43 < nsh> https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/322
15:44 < instagibbs> it's the key tree sigs trick, but seems useful here too
15:44 < nsh> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377298.0
15:44 < maaku> waxwing: well it's interactive. so the agreement happens off-chain. hopefully that helps your intuition
15:44 < maaku> instagibbs: "hash-then-add"? was that done in key trees?
15:45 < instagibbs> if we're talking about the same schnorr stuff, yes
15:45 < nsh> 'This changes the combined public key to be A*H(A) + B*H(B) + C*H(C) + ..., in an attempt to prevent a pubkey cancellation vulnerability.'
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15:47 < instagibbs> yes that
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