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09:09 < proslogion> so if someday we know QC is coming up, maybe we can SF in some covenants  to make sure outgoing txs from a P2PK script are non-fungible with others, past a certain time point, and anyone who wants to accept them must explicitly enable the support?
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09:48 < Taek> proslogion: I don't think anyone is worried about a break in cryptography due to quantum cryptography in the next 10 years, at this point there's no clear need to fork in protections against such a situation
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09:48 < MRL-Relay> {-othe} disagree, when its too late its too late...
09:48 < proslogion> Taek: yeah sure  i am not talking about now, but a "what if" scenario, or i would ask elsewhere :p
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09:51 < Taek> I could see using tree-scripting as a low-cost method for inserting alternative ways to spend an output, but by and large I think most protections that you could add would require making your average transaction a lot bigger
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09:52 < Taek> and, I believe mentioned previously, guy-fawkes signatures might serve as a good 'way out' in the event of a break - iirc the guy fawkes option is available to anyone that is using p2sh
09:52 < Taek> (well, after a fork)
09:53 < Taek> quantum computing would not allow an attacker to reverse the hash, which means an attacker could only spend outputs after the hash has been revealed
09:54 < Taek> a fork would allow you to commit to a hash of the signature several blocks in advance (like 6, or maybe 100), so the chain knows what signature to look for while preventing an attacker from being able to front-run the transaction
09:54 < Taek> because the attacker still hasn't seen the actual public key yet
09:54 < proslogion> Taek i have no conclusion about what would be a good post-QC signing algorithm, but what should we do with Satoshi and may be others millions of unmoves bitcoins in P2PK if it appears that nobody but the attackers are going to spend them, i am inspired by theymo's post here https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4cb9fx/how_soon_will_we_have_to_hard_fork_to_avoid/d1h0070 btw
09:55 < Taek> I don't know that there's anything you could do with all the p2pk coins
09:55 < buZz> there are piles of alternatives to ECDSA that are more quantum proof
09:55 < Taek> except destroy them
09:55 < buZz> also totally not hard to find
09:56 < proslogion> i was thinking maybe making them non-fungible with other coins?
09:56 < Taek> buZz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography
09:56 < buZz> yep, good example
09:56 < proslogion> like the occasional "covenants" ideas out there
09:58 < nsh> software should not decide which bitcoins have been under a mattress too long to be bitcoins
09:58 < nsh> this is a terrible idea, QC or not
09:58 < nsh> i'm hoping i just misread theymos' post
09:58 < buZz> that guy still around? wow
09:58 < Taek> nsh: assume that p2pk coins become trivial to steal. What do you do about that? Suddenly, there's a 1 million bitcoin prize to the first miner who can bury it under enough work
09:59 < nsh> that's no worse than the owner finding the bit of paper they wrote the key on in 2009
09:59 < nsh> except in terms of entropy expenditure
09:59 < Taek> no, it confuses the incentive models of the whole ecosystem
10:00 < nsh> i think the problem solving itself is better than devs undermining the principle that only a sig can spend an output
10:00 < nsh> or affect the spendability thereof
10:01 < Taek> also, one person finding 10,000 btc at random is not the same as one person finding 100% of all p2pk coins in existence at random
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10:02 < proslogion> the compromise i can came up with is to make the P2PK coins non-fungible with other coins, so anyone accepting them have to explicitly enable support
10:02 < proslogion> using a particular address format etc
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10:11 < fustkilas> hi
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10:11 < fustkilas> what is current thinking about proof-of-stake?
10:12 < belcher> fustkilas https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf tl;dr it doesnt work
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10:13 < fustkilas> belcher: oh
10:13 < fustkilas> are there any other schools of thought apart from proof of work and POS?
10:14 < kanzure> i think multisig might count
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10:17 < fustkilas> kanzure: but isnt multisig simply what bitcoin does every "heartbeat" (to paraphrase adrew poelstra)
10:18 < fustkilas> btw is andrew here, what is his username
10:18 < kanzure> there are many andrews
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10:20 < fustkilas> andrew poelstra, the author of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf and https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf
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10:23 < waxwing> fustkilas: andytoshi is his name here
10:24 < fustkilas> kul thx
10:24 < fustkilas> so... isnt multisig simply what bitcoin does?
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11:13 < andytoshi> fustkilas: hi, i'm andrew poelstra
11:13 < andytoshi> fustkilas: bitcoin supports multisignature transactions. i think what kanzure means by "multisig" is signing /blocks/ with multisignatures, which is certainly not what bitcoin does
11:14 < andytoshi> this amounts to a federation of signers deciding on transation ordering, i think we usually call this a "federated trust model"
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11:16 < andytoshi> fustkilas: the first couple pages of http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf (which i also had a hand in writing) talk a bit about different trust models and what bitcoin does. i think pos.pdf also does now
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11:34 < kanzure> fustkilas: no i mean multisig for block signing. this is what at least elements doe-- oh i see andytoshi has mentioned this.
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11:42 < fustkilas> hullo
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12:05 < nsh> no, i'm Spartandrewticus!
12:05 < nsh> (and so is my wife)
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13:59 < nsh> [old] ' Abstract: Bitcoin is the first and most popular decentralized cryptocurrency to date. In this work, we extract and analyze the core of the Bitcoin protocol, which we term the Bitcoin {\em backbone}, and prove two of its fundamental properties which we call {\em common prefix} and {\em chain quality}. Our proofs hinge on appropriate and novel assumptions on the ``hashing power'' of the advers
13:59 < nsh> ary relative to network synchronicity; our results are shown to be tight under high synchronization. ' -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/765
13:59 < nsh> (i just thought 'network synchronicity' was a quaint turn of phrase)
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14:13 < lmatteis> does anyone know what happened to this conference? http://www.wikicfp.com/cfp/program?id=2282&s=P2P&f=International%20Conference%20on%20Peer-to-Peer%20Computing
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16:12 < kanzure> nsh: make me a thermodynamic system that can export the efficencies of economy of scale as an output
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16:14 < kanzure> probably powpay but scaled and normalized against all the other submissions in a time window
16:18 < nsh> i don't understand the request
16:19 < nsh> thermodynamic systems tend towards energetic economies of scale due to complexity effects anyway, given vague sufficient conditions. jiggles like to conmiggle
16:20 < kanzure> well i mean the problem is economies of scale, so at minimum we should be looking at research that makes discrete variables about economy of scale itself heh
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22:09 < zooko> Hiya nsh.
22:09 < zooko> Hey wizards, please notice https://z.cash/blog/science-roundup.html if you haven't already.
22:09 < nsh> hi zooko :)
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22:48 < gwillen> zooko: :+1:
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23:04 < zooko> You wizards might also be interested in https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/95
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23:14 < gwillen> zooko: hmm, I don't feel like "dropping mining power -> worse service" is inherent in PoW
23:14 < gwillen> isn't the periodic-retarget model an implementation detail of Bitcoin?
23:14 < gwillen> versus some more continuous difficulty adjustment model?
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23:15 < gwillen> (I see reading #147 that this is the proposed solution, too.)
23:24 < zooko> Yeah, that's the best I think we can do for Zcash 1.0.
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 30 00:00:14 2016