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04:25 < rende> Whats the best way to transmit a custom bitcoin tx using nodejs? I'm using bitcoinjs-lib
04:25 < rende> Do I just need some node ip addresses and send to them over udp or something?
04:26 < rende> shit looks like im the wrong channel
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05:36 < visitor> Ive got a question about bitcoing mining
05:36 < visitor> if anyone is there?
05:37 < visitor> Ill ask anyway and pop back later.
05:37 < belcher> try in #bitcoin visitor
05:37 < belcher> also dont ask to ask, just ask
05:37 < visitor> lol thanks
05:39 < visitor> I dont get where to "register" a solved block once I manage to solve a block - I have a feeling theres something Im just not understanding about the lack of centralisation in bitcoin so maybe my question doesnt have an answer because Im asking the wrong question, so from where Im looking "to register a solved block", what is it Im not getting here
05:43 < fluffypony> visitor: #bitcoin is the appropriate room for your question
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06:04 < rusty> Fuck, I spent a day trying to figure out why my tx signatures were failing for SegWit.  I finally stumbled onto the existence of BIP 143
06:20 < waxwing> rusty: heh :)
06:24 < waxwing> rusty: after replicating that, ndorier's site is useful i found for more sanity checks
06:24 < waxwing> http://n.bitcoin.ninja/checktx
06:25 < rusty> waxwing: nice, thanks!
06:25 < rusty> waxwing: I'm trying to implement from only the BIPs... keeps me honest :)
06:25 < waxwing> note: "signature hash" field is little endian there
06:25 < waxwing> yeah well, not many choices, right :)
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07:02 < instagibbs> *glares at rusty for not reading the bips*
07:02 < rusty> instagibbs: *SO MANY BIPS*!
07:03 < instagibbs> yeah... but where did you think the O(n^2) hashing was hiding :P
07:04 < rusty> instagibbs: I didn't realize that segwit had slayed that dragon too.
07:04 < instagibbs> btw the reference code in the bip is ~same as in the segwit branch
07:04 < instagibbs> ok enough off-topic for wizardry :)
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12:03 < bsm1175321> Re: timing and the links posted by kanzure, some involving zooko...I often wonder if a dynamical definition of "time" would not be acceptable.  Financial systems inherently have time and while from a database construction perspective that's ugly as sin, rent becomes due and obligations expire in the human financial world according to clocks.
12:04 < bsm1175321> Couldn't there be a dynamical protocol (similar to bitcoin's retargeting) that let's people be wrong on average, but provably converges to an average "network p2p time" that is not terribad?
12:05 < bsm1175321> I mean, If I used network latencies, tied together, as a clock, I should easily be able to get sub-second precision on time.
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13:30 < Eliel_> bsm1175321: I think you could probably use an identity based DAG structure to manage a consensus about what the time is. That is, every participant records a message with current time, their identity and signature as well as several previously seen messages from other identities (and one of their own) about previous times.
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14:18 < Taek> Eliel: would be more comforting if there were clear incentives to tell the right time, though I'm really not sure how you'd manage that
14:20 < Eliel_> Taek: I think that as long as one node in the whole set of nodes participating is telling the right time, you can figure out the time.
14:20 < Eliel_> with that structure
14:22 < Taek> but what about the adversarial case? I don't see how, if half or more of the nodes attempting to mislead you, that you would be able to figure out the correct time?
14:22 < Eliel_> at least given a little history
14:22 < Taek> hmm
14:22 < Eliel_> you have your own clock, so you can tell if others are skewing the time.
14:22 < Eliel_> and can detect which nodes are doing it properly
14:23 < Taek> as long as you have a minimal amount of trust with regards to your own clock :P
14:24 < Eliel_> yes, you need to be able to trust your own clock (or another specific node in the network)
14:24 < r0ach> Anyone in here know why Peter Todd said Bitpay's idea of dynamic block size was "broken" the other day? (I think it was Bitpay, I forgot).  Wasn't their idea the same thing Monero already uses?
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14:25 < Taek> does Monero use dynamic block size? Can you link to the bitpay proposal? There are a number of problems with all dynamic blocksize protocols that I know of
14:26 < Taek> the majority of the problems come back to the fact that it gives the miners too much power, you can constantly disregard the bottom 10% of miners (in terms of ability to handle the load), and this causes an ongoing spiral until you've only got huge miners left
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14:27 < Eliel_> yes, median has that problem. However, would that be the case if it wasn't median but something like 20th percentile? (median can be considered to be 50th percentile)
14:27 < r0ach> I've never really understand the benefits of a dynamic block size over just manually engineering it to the max you think your system can handle in the first place, but that's just me heh
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14:28 < Taek> r0ach: the major advantage is that technology is improving all the time. Not only is the networking code in Bitcoin getting better, but the underlying network as a whole is getting better
14:28 < Taek> cpus faster, etc
14:28 < r0ach> well, yea, the "if you believe you will not have to hard fork for the next 100 years" theory
14:28 < Taek> ideally, you'd have some automatic way to detect what the max load of the system is and adjust to it, because growth is not very predictable
14:29 < Taek> I think that are a lot of reasons to be afraid of hardforks
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14:30 < Taek> like, monetary policy is sort of a hardfork on your currency
14:30 < Taek> you change the underlying assumptions about the supply and demand
14:30 < Taek> hardforking the throughput of the network has a similar effect
14:31 < Taek> suddenly people who thought that their computers/connections were good enough for a while might find themselves needing to upgrade
14:31 < dEBRUYNE> Taek: Yes Monero uses a dynamic blocksize limit
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14:31 < Taek> and that generally goes against the philosophy of decentralization
14:31 < dEBRUYNE> I think PT said it was broken because it didn´t use a penalty (the proposal)
14:31 < Taek> *well the philosophy of Bitcoin
14:31 < Taek> fluffypony: why does monero use a dynamic blocksize limit? lol
14:33  * dEBRUYNE pages smooth
14:34 < dEBRUYNE> Taek: The penalty in Monero makes it viable as far as I know, but one of the developers can probably elaborate better on it
14:35 < r0ach> it's hard to look at things like that and figure out all the outlier cases, which is why I wanted Peter Todd to clarify on the Monero implementation vs Bitpay
14:39 < smooth> Taek: the stated reason for the dynamic block size limit is to avoid having it be set by developers
14:39 < Taek> smooth: who sets it? (thanks for joining)
14:39 < smooth> an algorithm
14:39 < smooth> i think it was discussed above?
14:39 < Taek> I mean, what are the inputs that drive the algorithm?
14:40 < smooth> median block size and, indirectly, market rate on transaction fees
14:40 < smooth> also i kind of disagree with the "miners have too much power" whenever you get to >50% of miners
14:40 < smooth> because >50% of miners can pretty well do whatever the hell they want in practice
14:41 < smooth> best not to even get there
14:41 < dEBRUYNE> Taek: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/45b8qn/my_journey_to_finding_monero_and_some_questions/czwlcdb
14:41 < dEBRUYNE> ¨As I noted in the thread, this is similar to the block sizing algorithm for Monero and other CryptoNote coins. A quadratic penalty is imposed such that block subsidy = base subsidy * ((block size / median size of last 400 blocks) - 1)², with the penalty being applied after you build a block larger than the median size. The maximum block size is 2*median size. Because subsidy is based around the number of coins in existence, th
14:41 < dEBRUYNE> e 'burned' subsidy is deferred to be paid out to future blocks.¨
14:41 < Taek> ah, thanks
14:41 < dEBRUYNE> ^ tacotime´s comment
14:42 < Taek> re: bitpay, bitpay allows exponential growth of the blocksize based on the average size of blocks over the past 3 months, that strikes me as pretty dangerous. Miners are incentivized to include any transactions that have fees which exceed the introduced orphan risk
14:43 < dEBRUYNE> ^ I think they changed that to median
14:43 < dEBRUYNE> instead of average
14:43 < Taek> and methods of preconsensus mean that the orphan risk is not guaranteed to be linear with the size of the transaction
14:43 < Taek> ok, but the same problems still apply. All you need to do is keep a constant dump of low fee transactions in the system and you'll get maximum growth
14:44 < Taek> miners that are larger or have better networks will have less issues with orphan risk
14:44 < Taek> which means you again get the problem that the bottom few % are always going to be the victims
14:44 < Taek> but iterate over that a few times and the floor is very high
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14:45 < Taek> Spam attacks aside, I do believe that the natural growth of Bitcoin is going to exceed our network capabilities relatively quickly
14:45 < smooth> well in monero with low fee transactions you will only get very slow growth
14:45 < Taek> and, you get lazy implementations when fees are cheap. Exchanges that make 2 transactions per withdrawal, for example
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14:45 < Taek> (I'm still focused on just the BitPay proposal)
14:45 < smooth> (unless >50% of miners are being malicious)
14:46 < smooth> ah okay, well i think their lack of any cost to increase the block size is problematic
14:46 < Taek> agreed
14:47 < Taek> huh. Subsidy based on number of coins in existence is pretty interesting. I guess I haven't looked at Monero very closely ever
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14:48 < smooth> Taek: it works out to the same sort of exponential decline as btc, except by block
14:48 < Taek> but then extends if you burn coins
14:48 < Taek> which is a neat trick
14:48 < smooth> right
14:49 < smooth> in btc each epoch distributes 1/2 of the remaining coins; in moenro each block distributes 1/large_number of remaining coins
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17:25 < bsm1175321> I mean, Re: time (Taek, Eliel_, smooth), any idiotic scheme in which everyone reports time results in an "average" time just by averaging their reports.  Now, can an incentive cause such a definition of average time to converge toward some definition of "actual" time?  One idiotic scheme would be to under-report times when I thought the network average was too high, and over-report when I thought it was too low.
17:27 < bsm1175321> What I'm actually driving toward is a definition of "time" that is based on "miners" distributed around the surface of a sphere, that is insensitive to delayed reports, but simultaneously doesn't incentivize centralization.
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19:07 < Taek> I still like the solution of using a picture of the stars to tell what the time is
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19:08 < Taek> I was informed recently that this is how MAD nuclear missiles guide themselves, that way they are not dependent on tech like satellites or the internet, or anything else that could be destroyed by opposing MAD nuclear missiles
19:10 < Taek> not that I've seen a ton of suggestions for decentralized time, but most schemes that I've seen so far rely on a bunch of honest nodes without having explicit incentives in the direction of honesty
19:10 < Taek> also, apparently you can get atomic clocks for fairly cheap that are miles better than quartz
19:10 < Taek> *that fit on a chip
19:11 < Taek> so if you could get a reasonably trustworthy approximation of the current time, you could have high certainty in the accuracy of your clock as long as you had the right hardware
19:11 < Taek> but simply getting the current time ends up being a challenge
19:12 < belcher> a picture of the stars would only tell you geological time wouldnt it? whether you're in the mesoproterozoic or the paleoarchean
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19:12 < belcher> stars move very slowly relative to each other
19:12 < kanzure> yes i have been meaning to write my own open-source stellar navigation program, not convinced everyone else is doing it correctly
19:12 < kanzure> ... or find an existing one.
19:16 < Taek> belcher: I couldn't be 100% certain, but Earth ends up playing a huge role. The Earth + Sun are moving enough that the parallax effects should give you a high resolution on what the current time is
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19:17 < Taek> though, I'm not sure what sort of picture you need to be able to see that effect. 5mp might not be enough, and anything short of a large telescope might not be enough either
19:17  * Taek writes an email to an old astronomy professor
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19:23 < belcher> Taek that would take hundreds of millions of years to notice a difference
19:24 < belcher> those nuclear missiles you're talking about use the stars to find direction, not time
19:26 < Taek> modern astronomy relies pretty heavily on the parallax effect
19:26 < Taek> I took a class on this like 2 years ago
19:26 < belcher> we're talking about different things here, im thinking the real motion of the stars
19:26 < phantomcircuit> belcher, huh? iirc they use inertial navigation
19:27 < belcher> parallax is for finding distance to the stars, and measurements must be taken six months apart, maybe theres a way to get time from that but i can think of a way
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19:28 < belcher> phantomcircuit idk, Taek said nuclear missiles used stars
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19:29 < belcher> they probably use both, inertial navigation can give you position more than direction
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19:31 < bsm1175321> Taek I guess the cryptographic assumption that your adversary cannot accelerate a remote mass at more than X m/s^2 is valid?
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19:32 < Taek> well, the software could be written to tolerate a few stars that seem out of place
19:32 < bsm1175321> That's a rather bizarre cryptographic assumption.  Though I will accept the laws of physics as ultimate limits on an adversary.  ;-)
19:32 < Taek> so more I'm assuming that the adversary can't move more than 1/3f + 1 stars :)
19:32 < belcher> in terms of physics, theres no such thing as an absolute time
19:32 < Taek> *3f + 1
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19:32 < bsm1175321> Well it's a lot easier to fake a star with a nearby source...
19:32 < belcher> if one of your nodes goes close to a black hole, it can legitimately state a time that is different from all others
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19:32 < Taek> oh yeah, I guess the adversary could just replace the sky or something
19:33 < c0rw1n> belcher: yeah but the consensus will reject i t
19:33 < c0rw1n> also how woud it send the network packets :s
19:33 < belcher> it doesnt have to fall into the black hole, just get close enough, so packets can still go out
19:33 < bsm1175321> Well. it's a lot cheaper to place a shiny object in a correct orbit than to move stars...
19:33 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, seems like a pretty normal cryptographic assumption to me
19:34 < belcher> the consensus thing would mean you can only transact this cryptocurrency to entities in the same frame in spacetime as you
19:34 < phantomcircuit> "i assume that the attacker cannot convert galaxies into energy to brute force my key"
19:34 < bsm1175321> phantomcircuit: Orbital mechanics is a bitch.
19:34 < belcher> then again bitcoin basically only works on planet earth so its not too bad of a limitation
19:34 < bsm1175321> Well a 10m block time basically places its reach out beyond mars...
19:34 < belcher> mining at least
19:35  * bsm1175321 mines on mars.
19:35 < bsm1175321> Not very profitably, mind you.
19:35 < bsm1175321> But there are few sources of profit out here...
19:35 < belcher> the light speed delay from mars is between 13 minutes and 24 minutes
19:36 < belcher> it would be -blocksonly=1 nodes only so far as i can see
19:36 < bsm1175321> belcher, congratulations on your googling abilities.  So a relevant fraction of the time I could mine on Mars and broadcast to earth.  ;-)
19:37 < belcher> wouldnt all your blocks be orphaned if the mining majority is on earth ?
19:37 < belcher> thats 13 minutes, not seconds
19:37 < bsm1175321> Some fraction, yes.
19:37 < c0rw1n> lots of them would, presumably
19:37 < bsm1175321> But not 100%.
19:37 < Taek> (mars and earth are not always the same distance apart)
19:38 < c0rw1n> (yes, that is why 13 to 24 min)
19:38 < phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, you'd have a pretty abismal orphan rate
19:38 < phantomcircuit> 50+%
19:38 < bsm1175321> As Taek says, this is a whole lot more worthwhile when Earth and Mars are on the same side of the Sun.  ;-)
19:38 < Taek> oh, missed the word 'between', sorry
19:39 < belcher> id say stick to mining water when on mars
19:39 < fluffypony> lol
19:39 < fluffypony> "miners are switching that h2ocoin
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19:40 < c0rw1n> proof of water, how would that work
19:40 < belcher> water is frozen everywhere in martian soil, it can be very decentralzied
19:40 < Taek> Even if orphan rate was not a problem, I'm assuming that you aren't going to be hitting the same economies of scale when constructing ASICs on Mars
19:40 < belcher> collect some soil and warm it up, water will outgas
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19:40 < bsm1175321> My braid project kills orphans.  But the settlement time is propotional to the latency of the network.
19:41 < bsm1175321> So...Earth-Mars is sexy but hella slow.
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19:41 < bsm1175321> On the surface of the earth we're talking  < 1s settlement time.
19:41 < bsm1175321> It's only ~200ms to transmit a signal to the other side of the earth.
19:42 < fluffypony> just lay fibre from earth to mars
19:42 < bsm1175321> Fiber is 1/3 the speed of light.  Radio is better.
19:42 < fluffypony> what about a very powerful laser
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19:43 < bsm1175321> We do that all the time.  Lasers move at the speed of light.  Same speed as radio, but aiming is a lot harder.
19:43 < bsm1175321> http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html
19:43 < Taek> I'm sure that inter-planetary settlement does not need to happen every second :P
19:43 < belcher> we shoot the miner with lasers all the time
19:43 < belcher> bitcoin core on mars with -blocksonly=1 would work perfectly fine
19:44 < bsm1175321> Basically, the Apollo astronauts left corner reflectors on the surface of the moon.
19:44 < Taek> might be okay when mars is small, but you do get stuck in the position where Earth essentially controls all of the finances
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19:44 < bsm1175321> We use them to this day to accurately measure the Earth-Moon distance to within ~ mm.
19:44 < belcher> Taek maybe a mars sidechain
19:44 < fluffypony> yeah
19:44 < fluffypony> that settles back to earth once or twice a day
19:44 < fluffypony> Marschain
19:45 < kanzure> don't contaminate mars with money
19:45 < belcher> or just only settles when people need to do interplanetary trade
19:45 < kanzure> what's wrong with you people
19:45 < belcher> kanzure we're far from that dont worry, afaik not even antarctica uses money yet
19:45 < kanzure> "if you can name a planetary body, then you've named a place man has figured out to introduce money"
19:46 < Taek> I still think you'd run into trouble with the hardware production. Any hashrate on Mars is going to be more expensive than the same hashrate built and powered on Earth.
19:46 < bsm1175321> We have to shard things first.  It's not a reasonable assumption that every Mars transaction is spending an Earth UTXO.
19:46 < belcher> how long until a Kepler-452b-coin ?
19:46 < Taek> made it yesterday
19:46 < Taek> have a bot making coins with CoinGen
19:47 < bsm1175321> Jeez guyz, I'm trying to be serious here. :-P
19:47 < kanzure> probably need some sort of multiple-onion-layer (not the routing concept) for interstellar distances.. greater distance means more infrequent timing.
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19:47 < bsm1175321> A 13m settlment time is unreasonable.  So is a 6*(10m) time :-P
19:48 < kanzure> but not much you can do if the digital representation does not correspond to the physical deliveries flying between systems
19:48 < Taek> bsm1175321: we've hit enough topics that I'm not sure which one you are trying to be serious about. I think a 13m settlement time is perfectly reasonable even for Earth
19:48 < belcher> its not just settlement, even lightning transactions would take 13m
19:48 < fluffypony> so are we admitting that Marscoin will be a settlement chain?
19:48  * bsm1175321 notices that his simulations involving 1s settlement times have finished.
19:49  * fluffypony forks it into Marscoin XT
19:49 < Taek> if you assume a lightning-like infrastructure, you can do non-settlement based off-chain payments extremely quickly, and settle days or months later
19:49 < belcher> not between earth and mars Taek
19:49 < belcher> physics means planets will always be remote from each other
19:49 < bsm1175321> This is a fun conversation.  I wish I didn't have so much gin.
19:49 < Taek> but you can do mars<->mars transactions quickly
19:49 < belcher> oh yes
19:50 < bsm1175321> The solar system implies a hub-and-spoke model...
19:50 < kanzure> belcher: you can actually force planets to be closer together
19:50 < belcher> we need a way to force mining to happen on mars and then we can make a mars sidechain
19:50 < Taek> Would could you possibly pay for in an earth<->mars transaction that would require faster settlement than the speed of light?
19:50 < belcher> maybe the Mars Authority can simply sign blocks for us
19:50 < bsm1175321> belcher: But then you have to isolate the subset of UTXO's that are active on Mars.
19:50 < belcher> bsm1175321 thats what a sidechain does, doesnt it ?
19:50 < bsm1175321> Eh...
19:50 < bsm1175321> Maybe...
19:51 < belcher> you say that bitcoin utxos are active on earth, marscoin ones on mars
19:51 < bsm1175321> belcher: In other words I can buy Marscoin and convert it back to Earthcoin, sure.  But that's hella boring.
19:51 < kanzure> digital transactions between star systems is nice and all, but what exactly are you paying for-- supplies? information? supplies might be required but you'll get them thousands of years later.
19:52 < belcher> yes kanzure
19:52 < fluffypony> kanzure: that's what ZKCP is for
19:52 < kanzure> i'm not sure colony/city engineering can correctly predict supply requirements 1000 years ahead of time. AFAIK nyc subway planning only considers the next 5 minutes.
19:52 < fluffypony> it's fine if the supplies take time
19:52 < belcher> there simply might not be demand for interstellar and interplanetary money transfer
19:52 < bsm1175321> belcher: Bitcoin does not have a natural way to divide UTXO's by (stellar) geography.  There's no way to know who is nearby or who is more likely to be spent soon.
19:52 < kanzure> belcher: i think that the main demand for interstellar transfer will be computing-related, e.g. transferring brain emulations.
19:52 < bsm1175321> belcher: You bet there ass there will be.
19:53 < bsm1175321> There will always be someone who will accept assets on Mars in exchange for the promise of assets on Earth, and this is hella interesting and valuable.
19:53 < kanzure> perhaps you can design high-reliability civilizations where you can regularly pay for shipments 1000s of years before they arrive but so far we have trouble engineering anything with any amount of reliability
19:53 < belcher> bsm1175321 ok yes, i suppose cryptocurrency is more secure that loading up the ship with gold bars for its return trip as payment
19:54 < Taek> So, once we're talking inter-solar transactions, there are very few resources that make sense to transfer, due to difficulties such as escape velocity
19:54 < bsm1175321> Gold bars my ass.  Bitcoin solved the counterparty problem in one-way sends...
19:54 < fluffypony> what if we can bend microspace for each transaction, so the credit-card-style machine can instantly connect to the other one?
19:54 < kanzure> Taek: some planets just don't have all the necessary "vitamins".
19:55 < Taek> as kanzure suggested, information is about the only one that's really important. And a lot of the most important information you could almost do for free, because the cost of transferring information is much much lower than the cost of moving say, gold
19:55 < c0rw1n> fluffypony: then that will be the tx fee ?
19:55 < kanzure> well, bandwidth
19:55 < funkenstein_> stross covers interstellar payments in a neat way in "accelerondo"
19:55 < bsm1175321> Taek: Exactly.  Crypto-currency is a huge advantage in interstellar commerce.
19:55 < bsm1175321> s/interstellar/interplanetary/
19:55 < fluffypony> c0rw1n: excellent
19:55 < Taek> kanzure: at some point, nuclear fusion covers all of your needs
19:55 < kanzure> bsm1175321: maybe, but having a 10 million year settlement/synchronization time is unworkable. what does it mean when a 100,000 year old transaction fails to settle? what the fuck do you do?
19:55 < Taek> depends on how expensive it ends up being to convert hydrogen to X
19:56 < bsm1175321> kanzure: On a human timescale, sure.  But on corporate?  The island of Hong Kong was leased for 99 years...
19:56 < kanzure> if you have the same people still living or whatever, perhaps they can fix the transaction and try again or something
19:56 < Taek> LOL
19:56 < bsm1175321> I went to the museum.
19:56 < Taek> I'm sure that whatever governance ends up dictating relationships between entities 100,000 years apart will be well beyond anything we can reason about today
19:57 < bsm1175321> Indeed.
19:57 < kanzure> i doubt there will be governance
19:57 < belcher> there also exist 100 year and 1000 year bonds
19:57 < kanzure> there are 1000 year bonds?
19:57 < Taek> 1000 year bonds 0.o. Seems like a pretty safe bet for a government to make imho
19:57 < bsm1175321> To return to the conversation yesterday about clocks...
19:58 < bsm1175321> How do you measure 1000 years?  And what happens if you're off by 0.1%?
19:58 < kanzure> no clocks; they are a german/swiss conspiracy to employ more physicists.
19:58 < kanzure> under what conditions does a modern investor buy a 1000 year bond...? i don't understand.
19:58 < bsm1175321> kanzure: fucking centralization
19:58 < kanzure> bsm1175321: i believe the long now foundation has already answered your question.
19:58 < belcher> bsm1175321 atomic clocks ?
19:58 < bsm1175321> kanzure: I don't believe they have.
19:58 < kanzure> don't they claim to have built a clock accurate to 10,000 years off by only a few milliseconds
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19:58 < bsm1175321> I know plenty about atomic clocks, and I don't trust yours.
19:59 < belcher> kanzure there also exist bonds which pay back, called perpetual bonds, they are bets on long term inflation i guess
19:59 < belcher> which never pay back*
19:59 < kanzure> belcher: so it's probably corporate/government entities buying the 1k year bonds?
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19:59 < belcher> yes
20:00 < kanzure> that's interesting. i could see a lot of funding tricks for mars colonies like "a bond that represents 5% of all intellectual property output and its revenue" (or whatever). (yes i know we shouldn't taint mars with intellectual property nonsense...).
20:00 < bsm1175321> The latest tech is particle fountains.  http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/how-nist-f2-works.cfm
20:00 < bsm1175321> Still don't trust yours.
20:01 < kanzure> have you considered giving up on clocks, instead?
20:01 < kanzure> they seem to be wrong all the time anyway
20:01 < kanzure> which is their one function
20:01 < bsm1175321> kanzure: Works for databases, not so much for contracts.
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20:01 < kanzure> haha contracts and time..... so all contracts are synced to NIST atomic clocks?
20:02 < kanzure> sounds like a vulnerability to me
20:02 < bsm1175321> Dunno.  If you were to convince bankers to move off "time" for contracts, what would you do?
20:02 < funkenstein_> i use astronomical clocks for all contracts
20:03 < funkenstein_> quarters are solstices and equinoxes, months begin with full moons
20:03 < bsm1175321>  When the conjunction of J1288434 and S82323 reach perhelion, assuming no transient object intervenes...
20:03 < funkenstein_> lol
20:03 < kanzure> bsm1175321: probably bilateral agreement about certain events and market conditions.. not sure. i'll think about it.
20:03 < bsm1175321> That's just about as accurate as using clouds for timekeeping.
20:03 < Taek> proof-of-transient-intervention
20:04 < bsm1175321> Then there's this: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/515321/an-interplanetary-gps-using-pulsar-signals/
20:04 < bsm1175321> Which is not a bad idea...
20:05 < kanzure> do you really trust anything the size of a star that rotates more than a million times per second? really?
20:05 < Taek> http://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10324/is-it-possible-to-use-the-stars-to-determine-the-passage-of-time
20:05 < bsm1175321> Still we're talking about a huge investment in equipment to observe some remote shit, and I still don't (cryptographically) trust your setup.
20:06 < Taek> ^ a professional astronomer dropped into a random place with a crappy telescope 10,000 years into the future should be able to tell within 2,000 years that they have been shifted 10,000 years
20:06 < Taek> that's without a computer
20:06 < kanzure> oops fastest spinning star found so far is 716 Hz sorry, my ba
20:06 < kanzure> *my bad
20:06 < funkenstein_> do you really need to make a contract with more temporal accuracy than provided by the moon?
20:07 < bsm1175321> funkenstein_: That's not really the problem.  The correct question is: can an adversary delude you that the correct time is +/- X seconds
20:07 < bsm1175321> If everyone has a telescope, that's one thing.  Do you?
20:07 < funkenstein_> i'm talking about luna here, Earth's moon
20:08 < kanzure> Taek: so even with information, still not sure why you would be buying/selling information over interstellar distances. by the time you received the requested transmission, perhaps you could have re-derived the information on your own anyway.
20:08 < bsm1175321> Accurate measurements of the moon require laser ranging.  They shoot a humongofucking laser at the corner reflector left by the Apollo astronauts and the get back a *handful* of photons.
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20:09 < bsm1175321> It's a very expensive proposition to accurately perform this measurement.  This is why modern timekeeping has moved to Cesium fountains, which are more accurate.
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20:09 < funkenstein_> bsm1175321,  lol.. i use full moon as payment marker for employees in contracts.  no microsecond accuracy necessary
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20:09 < bsm1175321> funkenstein_ has better goons than bsm1175321.
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20:10 < funkenstein_> bsm1175321, if your goons dance to Cesium fountains, perhaps not :)
20:11 < kanzure> Taek: also... for large astronomical distances, there's only a limited number of rounds of communication before the stars die out anyway.
20:11 < Taek> kanzure: true. The rate at which technological progress is happening suggests that information would be mostly irrelevant even just 100 years old
20:11 < kanzure> 4 billion light years + 100 participants or something => oops stars might be dead by the time you get around to finalizing even just your first or second round of communication.
20:12 < Taek> if you are doing bigger projects, say forming galaxy-sized theme parks or something, you might be moving around massive amounts of material.
20:12 < Taek> I don't see any way that you'd do stuff at a distance exceeding a billion light years
20:12 < kanzure> yeah so that's definitely on my todo list but it's not a near-term priority for me
20:12 < Taek> lol, even 10,000 light years is beyond imagining
20:12 < kanzure> well you have intergalactic bullshit, you see
20:12 < bsm1175321> OTOH, those contracts are gonna be hella expensive.  Can I bet on the Spanish expedition to the New World already?
20:12 < kanzure> we have andromeda colliding with us in a few million years
20:13 < kanzure> but there are other galaxies too
20:13 < kanzure> oh, 4 billion years
20:13 < kanzure> hey that's perfect.
20:13 < Taek> Andromeda is O(2 million) light years away
20:14 < kanzure> "The galaxy that will be the result of the collision is nicknamed Milkomeda.[5]" wtf, are we stuck with that name
20:14 < bsm1175321> Fun fact: Andromeda subtends a section of the sky approximately the same size as the full moon.
20:15 < kanzure> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Andromeda_Collides_Milky_Way.jpg
20:17 < kanzure> Taek: probably it would not make sense to do transactions on any system where the total settlement time is far beyond your own personal lifetime :P
20:19 < kanzure> also, PoW based systems would be heavily skewed towards centers of galaxies because that's where more energy is available
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20:48 < funkenstein_> the audacity to talk like one knows whats going on on galactic scales is remarkable.  there is too much unexplained in there to take it seriously
20:48 < Taek> well, that's half the fun of being a -wizard
20:49 < funkenstein_> i thought that was -alechimst
20:50 < Taek> is there much of a difference? An alchemist is basically the renissance version of a wizard
20:50 < funkenstein_> I should caveat that perhaps you guys do know how galaxies form, are held together, etc..  but personally I don't
20:50 < kanzure> have you considered reading about astronomy and astrophysics
20:50 < kanzure> this is a simple problem to fix, you know
20:50 < funkenstein_> i have an advanced degree in the field
20:51 < Taek> (really?)
20:51 < kanzure> so the answer is yes
20:51 < funkenstein_> yeah still trying :)
20:52 < Taek> I mean, I think you can get pretty far just by knowing that galaxies are 2 million lightyears apart. Any communication is going to take 2 million years, which means the set of practical interactions is very tiny, and limited to things requiring extreme scale
20:52 < funkenstein_> "knowing" in this case is a rather complex series of assumptions
20:52 < funkenstein_> parallax + standard candles
20:53 < Taek> oh? Are you suggesting it's possible that Andromeda is not 2 million light years away? I had assumed that was pretty well established
20:53 < kanzure> i have seen some papers questioning whether accelerating expansion of the universe is real or just fallout of bad calculations
20:53 < kanzure> or that black holes might not really be there
20:53 < funkenstein_> the distance problem is the second biggest problem of astronomy
20:54 < Taek> to what degree? I thought that, at a very low resolution, most of the standard candle was well proven
20:55 < Taek> (I've taken some undergrad courses in astronomy, nothing more)
20:55 < funkenstein_> cepheid variable seem decent enough but it's very hard to put a good error bar on there
20:57 < funkenstein_> galaxies appear remarkably close together at any rate
20:57 < Taek> funkenstein_: I don't think  you weighed in earlier, but do you have an idea of how useful a photograph of the stars from a modern consumer camera would be for determining the current date+time?
20:57 < funkenstein_> if you caught a planet in there it would be quite good
20:58 < Taek> order of minutes?
20:58 < funkenstein_> no probably not
20:59 < funkenstein_> moon would be best bet for high time resolution
20:59 < funkenstein_> moves 360 degrees vs. stars in 28 days
20:59 < funkenstein_> fastest moving object on celestial sphere
21:00 < Taek> so, you could use the constellations to get an epoch, close stars to get the milleneum, a planet to get the month, and the moon to get down to maybe 10 minutes?
21:01 < funkenstein_> yeah :)  something like that
21:01 < funkenstein_> a fair amount of work went into archaeoastrnometry trying to date ancient temples
21:02 < funkenstein_> Barnard's star is fastest moving star I am aware of
21:04 < funkenstein_> but constellations aren't going to change much.. your "epoch" won't necessarily give time in the long cycle (precession of equinoxes)
21:06 < Taek> maybe the wobble of the Earth would be good enough? For my purposes, you can really assume that you already the date within a decade, so the long term dating is less important
21:06 < Taek> Even assuming the year+month+day is pretty reasonable
21:07 < funkenstein_> I recommend "longitude" by David Sobel
21:07 < funkenstein_> a lot of people tried to solve your problem for the purposes of determining one's longitude using the stars
21:07 < funkenstein_> in the end it was mechanical clocks that won
21:08 < funkenstein_> it should be possible today though
21:08 < funkenstein_> only we have gps so nobody cares to make the effort
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