--- Log opened Fri Apr 15 00:00:29 2016
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01:34 < nsh> bsm117532, it reads okay until they start having their own ideas :)
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01:36 < nsh> i'm not sure this manual miner voting-based corroboration of cross-chain fidelity is a starter
01:36 < nsh> 'Everyone waits for a period of, say, 3 days. This gives everyone an opportunity to make sure the same WT^ is in both the Bitcoin coinbase and the Sidechain header. If they’re different, everyone has plenty of time to contact each other, figure out what is going on, and restart the process until its right.'
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02:59 < adlai> ;;later tell hazirafel can't read non-ascii, please resend messages, and get a bouncer/server/etc
02:59 < gribble> The operation succeeded.
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04:24 < runeks> Are we using a different term than 'scriptPubKey' to describe the script in a Bitcoin transaction output these days?
04:30 < stonecoldpat1> i'm not sure on the best phrase for it, lately ive been using redemption criteria
04:33 < stonecoldpat1> *or at least the people I talk to regularly use that phrase, and i've adopted it
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05:13 < waxwing> is there something wrong with 'scriptPubKey'?
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05:23 < stonecoldpat1> It is the name in the code we are all familiar with, but it doesn't really describe what is going on well for outsiders
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05:27 < waxwing> a pubkey has a similar role in other crypto systems. the scriptSig is like a signature and the transaction is a message, the scriptPubkey is like a pubkey. not arguing you couldn't choose another name, just that it isn't stupid.
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05:33 < instagibbs> i didn't understand it until that relationship was explained. In hindsight it's a pretty good name imo
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05:40 < stonecoldpat1> waxwing: I wouldn't say it was stupid! I would say that the scripting language is more extensive than it use to be, and the name scriptPubKey would imply it is for a single public key, or at least that is normally the question I am asked. Even scriptSig, it would imply a single signature which isn't necessarily true.
05:45 < stonecoldpat1> So I have tended to start using "Redemption Criteria (Script)" to explain outputs, and while RedeemScript is for P2SH, I also find it a good name for scriptsig. It would be useful to see what other people have been calling it.
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06:13 < adlai> you've got at input function, and an output function, together they make the bitcoin function.
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07:30 < kanzure> bsm117532: requires a single new opcode, OP_CHECK_VOTES_VERIFY
07:30 < kanzure> according to sergio at least http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/mit-bitcoin-expo-2016/rootstock/
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09:30 < instagibbs> ugh, "vote"
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09:36 < maaku> amiller: there was a paper out of fc'16 that you said was relevant to compact spv proofs. was this it? http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf
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09:39 < runeks> I agree that scriptPubKey is fine. I just had the thought in my head that we were calling it something else now, but I guess that was my imagination. I agree that redeemScript makes a bit more sense, although this taken by a specific type of scriptPubKey, P2SH.
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09:44 < runeks> I might have called the two pieces of data redemptionFunction (for scriptPubKey) and redemptionParameters (for scriptSig).
09:44 < runeks>  If you think about it, the scriptPubKey defines a function which takes a number of parameters, and the scriptSig provides parameters to this function, and if the function (scriptPubKey) evaluates to true with the given parameters, the transaction is valid.
09:45 < runeks> The scriptSig usually (always?) consists of stack pushes, but as far as I can see the stack is only used as a calling convention -- as a way for the scriptSig to pass its parameters to the scriptPubKey which returns true or false.
09:45 < adlai> yeah, but it's functions all the way down (until you reach turtles)
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09:47 < runeks> adlai: I'm not following...
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09:49 < adlai> runeks: bitcoin script is just code for a stack-based VM. both the "input" function, and the "output" function, just get called, not necessarily in that order. the result of calling them properly is... valid bitcoin TXs.
09:50 < nsh> bitcoin scripts are a forth-based language. the stack is how functions are invoked
09:50 < runeks> adlai: Certainly, the "input function" is called before the "output function", no?
09:51 < adlai> sure, we're arguing in circles here, circles make me think of foucault's pendulum and then my mind gets tied up in NOPs
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09:53 < runeks> I'm not really talking about what it "is", I'm just saying: a library could be developed which defines a language that compiles to Bitcoin script, which abstracts away all the stack pushes and makes it easier to understand complex scripts.
09:56 < c0rw1n> should be a graphical language of comic stick figures , at one panel per machine-state of the contract, defining who gets what on which conditions
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10:09 < maaku> runeks: "easier to understand" is subjective
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10:09 < maaku> bitcoin script is actually quite high level
10:09 < maaku> just needs better tooling
10:10 < runeks> The compiler that compiles to Bitcoin script would be a tool
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10:13 < runeks> maaku: And when I say "easier to understand", I'm mostly thinking about complex, nested ifs and such.
10:13 < runeks> not that a stack-based language is inherently more difficult to understand
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14:33 < Taek> https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/370.pdf
14:34 < Taek> "Malleability of the blockchain's entropy"
14:34 < Taek> I frequently advocate that blockchains are a good source of random numbers. This paper explores that idea more
14:36 < nsh> heh
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14:40 < nsh> this is silly
14:40 < nsh> if the game is to influence some part of the block, then yeah people can win
14:41 < nsh> but you'd have to be pretty badly misusing the block for entropy for that to be useful
14:41 < pigeons> depends how much the reward is
14:43 < nsh> i think i mean anyone picking bits of blocks at random to use as entropy deserves to have their lottery robbed or something
14:44 < pigeons> yeah
14:44 < nsh> there are particular bits of the blockheader that depend sensitively on all transactions in the current block and all of history
14:44 < nsh> that's the bit you might wanna use for entropy
14:45 < nsh> and the nonce that resulted in the proof-of-work difficulty-beating hash output
14:45 < nsh> at that point it's more difficult to bias the distribution than to win bitcoin unless bitcoin is broken in ways we haven't figured out yet
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15:05 < Taek> I mean, you should never need more than 32 bytes of entropy for anything you are doing
15:05 < Taek> and, the block hash will give you nearly that much
15:06 < Taek> it's very difficult to manipulate the block hash, because, well, you'd need to throw out the block and find another
15:06 < Taek> you really only get like 22 bytes of entropy though, because there are a boatload of leading zerores.
15:09 < helo> no reason not to combine the last N block headers afaict
15:09 < helo> *hashes
15:11 < Taek> you don't gain any security that way, a miner can see the final block before anyone else and that final block will influence the outcome of the rng in a way that the miner can contrl
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15:12 < phantomcircuit> Taek, er block hash is much less than 32 bytes of entropy
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15:13 < Taek> phantomcircuit: less than 20?
15:13 < phantomcircuit> currently about 23
15:14 < Taek> (I pointed that out)
15:14 < phantomcircuit> oh so you did
15:14  * phantomcircuit just put in contacts
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15:15 < Taek> so, would you get back to 32 bytes if you got the random number by rehashing the block with a prefix?
15:15 < Taek> that way, the winning hash and the rng hash are now uncorrelated
15:16 < Taek> seems sound to me
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15:19 < phantomcircuit> Taek, is the prefix random? if not then no you still have 23 bits of entropy
15:20 < phantomcircuit> does that make a practice difference in your protocol? probably not really
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15:24 < gielbier> quick question , would direct interaction be faster then rpc?
15:25 < gielbier> as in sync -> blockchainsql. Would i gain any improvement by interacting with bitcoind directly.
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15:26 < gielbier> senquential sync ofc.
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15:27 < adlai> gielbier: is that really a question for this channel?
15:27 < gielbier> oops. i was thinking this was bitcoin-dev
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15:31 < gielbier> adlai sorry about that. working on a binblock like thing. pondering about rmdbs like storage solutions for the blockchain which scale.
15:32 < adlai> gielbier: absolute optimization corrupts prematurely. my suggestion is that you focus on making the queries you need, and once you hit bottlenecks, investigate exactly which connections are the slowest ones, and optimize for those.
15:35 < gielbier>  absolute optimization corrupts prematurely <-- couldnt agree more. But things like query optimalisation are done. I'm just trying to get full table scans offload from mem or something fast. I end op with either mariadb with memory eninge, or cloud platform.
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15:52 < Taek> phantomcircuit: I'm struggling to understand why. The reason you lose entropy for the block hash is because they are going to be by definition a bunch of leading zeros
15:55 < Taek> the prefixed hash you don't know what it's going to look like when a winning block is found
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16:41 < kanzure> why do people make sha256 rainbow tables instead of xor(rightrotate(x, 2), rightrotate(x, 13), rightrotate(x, 22)) rainbow tables?
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16:48 < nsh> i'm not sure people do
16:51 < justanotheruser> I assume that is a self map I assume?
16:51 < nsh> rainbow tables get less useful as hashing gets faster and salting becomes standardised
16:52 < nsh> http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2011/08/rainbow-table-is-dead.html
16:52 < gwillen> yeah I think rainbow tables are pretty much dead these days, are they not?
16:52 < gwillen> hahaha, you beat me to it
16:53 < nsh> sadly not dead as most of gsm is still using terrible ciphers
16:53 < nsh> but theoretically
16:54 < gwillen> it's dead for password cracking, anyway
16:55  * nsh nods
16:55 < gwillen> the thing described in that article isn't even a rainbow table
16:55 < gwillen> although it's a common misconception
16:55 < gwillen> a rainbow table is a significant optimization on the brute-force table described
16:55  * nsh nods
16:55 < gwillen> which allows you to hit intermediate time-space tradeoff points
16:55 < gwillen> whereas a brute-force table like that can only hit "pure space, no time"
16:56 < nsh> right
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17:01 < justanotheruser> alright, I got started on it http://hastebin.com/raw/zegizedeje
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 16 00:00:48 2016