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07:48 < kanzure> https://media.ccc.de/v/31c3_-_6344_-_en_-_saal_1_-_201412281400_-_security_analysis_of_estonia_s_internet_voting_system_-_j_alex_halderman
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09:25 < waxwing> kanzure: i pointed people at that a few times. it's a great talk :)
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10:58 < neha> https://www.w3.org/2016/04/blockchain-workshop/
10:58 < neha> please consider attending (requires submitting a form or position paper) i would love to see more btc representation
10:59 < neha> no guarantees on outcomes but the w3c is pretty good at corralling the browser vendors, which means something interesting could happen down the line.
11:03 < kanzure> still not sure what to tell them to do. "no wallet stuff" is a strange constraint (because of some other payments group). not sure anything else belongs in a fat browser client...
11:06 < neha> i don't think there's a "no wallet stuff" constraint. where do you see that?
11:06 < fluffypony> omg it's a neha
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11:06 < neha> it says "Payments: this topic is already thriving, and risks dominating the workshop, so we prefer discussions of payment only when they are yoked with other topics (e.g. browser-based wallets for handling both payments and identity)"
11:07 < fluffypony> neha: I'm taking a couple of months from travelling after the trip I'm currently on, otherwise I would
11:07 < kanzure> neha: in the "out of scope" section
11:07 < fluffypony> conference sounds fantastic
11:07 < kanzure> i see.
11:07 < neha> hi fluffypony!
11:07 < fluffypony> s/conference/workshop
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11:08 < neha> my current fav topic for the workshop is browser-based wallets
11:09 < fluffypony> those are horrible and unsafe and no person in their right mind would operate one
11:09  * fluffypony whistles innocently
11:09  * fluffypony stares into the corner
11:09 < kanzure> agreed...
11:09 < kanzure> "how to encourage a million terrible javascript browser extension wallets" :)
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11:17 < neha> my thoughts are let's have the browser vendors implement them once (per browser) so that doesn't happen!
11:17 < fluffypony> sure
11:17 < neha> there's an interesting gap between web payments and web crypto
11:17 < neha> (working groups)
11:17 < fluffypony> the problem is that you end up with disparate systems
11:18 < fluffypony> what if the browser just knew how to handle a Payment object
11:18 < fluffypony> and your system had a bunch of installed providers that could service that Payment object
11:19 < neha> \me is happy we are having this conversation
11:19 < neha> oops
11:19  * neha is happy we are having this conversation
11:19 < neha> what is the difference between that and what i said?
11:20 < fluffypony> nothing, I was just thinking about "once per browser" vs. "once per system"
11:20 < neha> i suppose browser vendor implementing API vs. implementing wallet
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13:18 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11801093
13:18 < yoleaux> Security challenges for the Qubes build process | Hacker News
13:18 < kanzure> http://blog.invisiblethings.org/2016/05/30/build-security.html
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15:44 < bsm117532> I've got some interesting numbers for you kids...
15:46 < bsm117532> Taking the Bitcoin orphan rate (which is 1.16 per day, averaged over the last two years) and its target block time of 10 minutes, it's possible to calculate the minimum block time, given the network topology of mining bitcoin nodes.
15:46 < bsm117532> Essentially, the orphan rate tells you the "size" of the network.
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15:46 < bsm117532> in units of the block time.
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15:47 < bsm117532> This "size" is 4.8s (as a parameter in an equation I'll have to show later).
15:47 < bsm117532> The resultant minimum block time, allowing blocks to have multiple parents, is 11.6s.
15:47 < bsm117532> This is about a factor of 10 slower than other p2p networks (like bittorrent) I suspect due to mining nodes being slow to relay (great firewall or operating over Tor/I2P).
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15:54 < bsm117532> The resultant block "chain" (braid) has on average 2 beads per cohort (=block).
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16:04 < r0ach> I was browsing scamcoins and think I discovered the biggest Rube Goldberg implementation so far (NEM coin):
16:04 < r0ach> "Supernodes are expected to be high performance and reliable nodes. They are regularly tested on their bandwidth, chain height, chain parts, computing power, version, ping, and responsiveness to make sure that they are performing to high standards."
16:05 < katu> does nem really have an implementation?
16:05 < r0ach> I don't know, just stumbled upon that a second ago...
16:05 < katu> afaik it was half bollocks (along with storj and maid), and half not even bothering to release working implementation
16:06 < katu> anyhow, sort of wish somebody actually did try to instantiate something tackling the problem of self-reported rank consensus
16:06 < katu> it is doable to a degree imo, at least with weak subjective assumptions similiar to NaS
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19:01 < bsm117532> Updated analysis of difficulty and retargeting for blockchains and braids: https://rawgit.com/mcelrath/braidcoin/master/Braid%2BExamples.html
19:01 < bsm117532> New stuff at the bottom.
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19:05 < bsm117532> This will be in my upcoming paper "Braiding the Blockchain" which will be submitted to Ledger, but comments welcome here before the paper appears...
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19:10 < smooth> bsm117532: how do you know the bitcoin orphan rate? can't some of them just die without being reported?
19:10  * bsm117532 awaits with trepidation a new era of scamcoins using the Lambert W function for blahblahblah...
19:10 < bsm117532> smooth: I got it from blockchain.info
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19:10 < bsm117532> I averaged this: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks
19:11 < smooth> i guess it is a lower bound
19:11 < bsm117532> You think there are orphaned blocks that Blockchain.info never saw?
19:11 < smooth> do you have a sensitivity analysis of your results
19:11 < bsm117532> Not yet, but I might make one for the paper.  What are you interested in?
19:11 < smooth> its certainly possible there are blocks they never saw
19:12 < smooth> how important is that you know the true orphan rate, since you don't
19:13 < bsm117532> Well if you're interested in using those numbers in a retarget algorithm, as I showed at the bottom, the sensitivity is easy to calculate from the analytic formulas.
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19:14 < bsm117532> In a braid there would be no reason to not publish a block -- you'd still get rewards for it.  In Bitcoin I can see that orphans might get dumped or not relayed.
19:14 < smooth> oh i didn't click your link, i was just was reading your comments here. Thanks
19:14 < bsm117532> Yeah click the link.  Lots of meat in there.  :-)
19:14 < smooth> in bitcoin the standard algorithm is to not relay them
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19:15 < bsm117532> But you won't know they're an orphan until several blocks later...how can it choose to not relay?
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19:15 < smooth> only first seen is relayed
19:16 < smooth> now if a later seen block becomes part of a longer chain then both will be relayed by that node, but some fraction of the time that wont happen
19:16 < bsm117532> That doesn't make sense.
19:16 < smooth> If a node receive A then B at the same height, it will only relay A
19:17 < bsm117532> That's a bizarre weirdness right there.  What's the justification for that?
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19:17 < smooth> there is one, but i dont remember it
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19:18 < bsm117532> If I'm a miner, I want to receive both, so I can choose to mine on the one with the lower hash (I thought)...
19:19 < smooth> there's not particular reason to favor the lower hash, although conventions like that have been proposed
19:19 < bsm117532> The rule you cite explicitly favors miners with better connectivity.
19:21 < smooth> the selfish mining paper said the same, but there is indeed some tradeoff, i just dont remember it
19:21 < smooth> world is full of those annoying things
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19:21 < bsm117532> This braid business explicitly kills the selfish mining attack, by delaying rewards until well after a cohort has formed.
19:22 < bsm117532> The orphan race is a design flaw and is not necessary.
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19:25 < smooth> braids are complicated. design flaw is a bit extreme. it might be necessary if you want a simple algorithm
19:27 < bsm117532> smooth: Yeah they are complicated.  But I did all the work for you.  :-P
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19:27 < bsm117532> My cohort-finding algorithm is only about 15 lines in python, and that's the meat of it.  A retarget algorithm is presented in the formulas at the above link.  Again only a couple of lines.
19:28 < bsm117532> Took me 5 or 6 tries to get that algorithm right though...
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19:40 < smooth> im pulling for you, i just hope you can get buy-in
19:41 < smooth> there's a lot of inertia and competing interests
19:41 < bsm117532> Heh, thanks.  I've gotten what I wanted out of this, at this point.  I'll polish up my draft this week and submit it.
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19:41 < smooth> you'll get a nice paper out of it for sure, but in terms of adoption and improving bitcoin, well...
19:42 < bsm117532> I don't know really where is best to try to put this into production.  I've thought about modifying p2pool, or making a sidechain and add it to the Elements project, or convincing the Zcash folks... dunno.
19:42 < bsm117532> Suggestions welcome...
19:42 < smooth> be happy with the paper :)
19:43 < bsm117532> I am.  :-)
19:43 < bsm117532> I've also begun to think about this as step 0 on the path to healing network splits: https://github.com/zcash/zcash/issues/975
19:49 < smooth> do you think asset creation proportional to difficulty can possibly work?
19:49 < smooth> it seems problematic in having no understanding of what the supply is going to be
19:50 < bsm117532> It's the only thing that works.  Anything else rewards early miners at the expense of later miners (who invest more energy) and is a scam.
19:51 < bsm117532> Bitcoin is a direct representation of asset expenditure (hashcash) with added transactional properties.
19:51 < smooth> improving efficiency means later miner invest less energy
19:52 < bsm117532> It's not a perfect representation of asset expenditure, but it's the only cryptographic one I know of.  Every other form of "asset" in computers is actually an IOU that through <insert magic> gets tied to real-world assets.
19:52 < smooth> if you said creation proportional to energy...that would be different, but seems unimplementable
19:52 < smooth> actaully satoshi retargeting given non-cartel mining means that asset issuance is equal value to resources consumed
19:53 < bsm117532> The retargeting gives a time-based schedule.  It's only an accident if it's proportional to energy expended.
19:54 < smooth> yes but the value of tokens is another independent variable
19:55 < smooth> if mining is even reasonably competitive then value in = value out
19:55 < bsm117532> Anyway...you asked about allocation proportional to difficulty.  This is required to decide how to merge competing chains which do not contain double spends.
19:55 < smooth> yeah
19:55 < smooth> unless you can rescale it somehow
19:55 < bsm117532> The row of a database has zero value.  PoW has value.
19:56 < bsm117532> Yes, if you chose some schedule for coin allocation, you'd have to recompute everything in order to merge a network split.
19:57 < smooth> i think in your split case you are assuming the tokens on both sides must have the same value
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19:57 < bsm117532> Well you have to compare something in order to merge.  The one cryptographically representable value that can be decided, in the absence of communication between the chains, is the difficulty itself.
19:58 < smooth> you can compare time
19:58 < bsm117532> Nope.  Clocks on one side of the split can't be compared to the other.
19:58 < bsm117532> You'll give me a great timewarp net split attack...
19:59 < smooth> if you are igoring time altogether then maybe but otherwise if you are merging them you are imposing some time reference, if only for retargeting going forwarrd
20:00 < bsm117532> So, the notion of a "cohort" in the above worksheet is a time reference which all participants in the network agree upon.  It's where you define the UTXO set.
20:01 < bsm117532> In network protocols we desire to remove time altogether.  Assumptions about time find ways of failing, or being gamed.
20:01 < smooth> yes i agree with your statements if time is removed altogether
20:02 < bsm117532> I'd say that's outside my scope of analyzing the graph structure of the braid.
20:02 < bsm117532> I've started talking with zokoo about merging a long-running net split, but that's a different ball of yarn.
20:03 < bsm117532> Though, I'd like net splits to be resolved in exactly the same way as orphans/uncles: quickly, fairly, and robustly.
20:03 < bsm117532> Like a git merge...
20:03 < smooth> that was mostly what i was talking about, and considering your comment on the issue about not having a cutoff between "short" and "long"
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20:05 < smooth> i do think that proportional to difficulty makes a lot of sense but it is odd from the perspective of how we think about bitcoin now, because it isn't clear
20:05 < smooth> what issuance you received until much later
20:05 < smooth> which i guess is what your braids mechanism does (iirc from the earlier writeup i saw)
20:06 < bsm117532> It requires more work.  I think rewards proportional to difficulty is a requirement, but I worry about resolving chains of dependent spends, which becomes a double-spend in the merge.
20:06 < smooth> so no one really knows what they own?
20:06 < bsm117532> This line of thought seems to move transaction conflicts to be forks, rather than forks being defined by blocks.
20:07 < bsm117532> smooth: Why do you say that?  I would own exactly sum(difficulty) of what I've mined.
20:07 < smooth> so issuance is no longer time-controlled?
20:07 < bsm117532> That you mine 10,000 times more because you have a hydroelectric plant...
20:07 < bsm117532> smooth: correct.  (with difficulty-proportional rewards)
20:08 < bsm117532> It makes it more like traditional mining (of gold/coal/etc)
20:08 < smooth> is that in your braids proposal?
20:08 < smooth> if so that makes the whole will-bitcoin-ever-do-this question a lot easier :)
20:09 < bsm117532> I'm not sure.  I think I can remove it actually.  It's something I put in my draft a long time ago, but later realized I can simplify.
20:09 < smooth> ok gtg. i'll read your paper
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