--- Log opened Sat Jun 04 00:00:20 2016
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05:28 < waxwing> as if there wasn't enough to read on the topic :) .. jonas nick just linked this one: http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/575
05:30 < kanzure> "TumbleBit: An Untrusted Tumbler for Bitcoin-Compatible Anonymous Payments"
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05:53 < phantomcircuit> waxwing, i think i would be more interested in a description of the ideal system
05:54 < phantomcircuit> (ie what properties do we even want in such a system)
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05:54 < kanzure> section 4.2 seems to be meat of it.
05:55 < kanzure> and then combines that with an ecash voucher scheme
05:56 < kanzure> (page 6)
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06:04 < kanzure> using signature verification instead of script
06:05 < waxwing> phantomcircuit: good call i think. i'm still reading the interesting tricks in coinshuffle++ but .. hmm, how about "a technique that allows a bitcoin transaction to made as easy as currently made, but which obfuscates history sufficiently to increase fungibility meaningfully". wow that was vague :)
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06:20 < phantomcircuit> waxwing, and now you see the problem :P
06:24 < waxwing> sure, but on reflection, vagueness isn't such a big deal. the biggest problem i see with such a definition is that no *current* protocol, coinjoin or otherwise, achieves "to be made as easy as current bitcoin transactions are made" (should also add "with same trustlessness")
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06:26 < waxwing> without the trustlessness part, mixers/tumblers could be argued to be close to that goal.
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06:44 < kanzure> "On the security and performance of proof-of-work blockchains" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/555.pdf
06:45 < kanzure> "Antikernel: A decentralized secure hardware-software operating system architecture" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/550.pdf (from azonenberg (homecmos))
06:49 < kanzure> http://redmine.drawersteak.com/projects/achd-soc/repository
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07:02 < kanzure> this is the same fellow who was doing at-home semiconductor manufacturing and microelectronics
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08:17 < Peter_R_> Data on block propagation through the GFC comparing Xthin to standard blocks:
08:17 < Peter_R_> https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-792a752c14c2
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08:34 < Taek> drop in, drop link, drop out
08:34 < Taek> :<
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08:36 < Peter_R_> I'm right here.
08:36 < Taek> ah yeah, you read the logs
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08:37 < Taek> have you seen the braid work? I think that braids can allow for arbitrarily small blocks, eliminating the need for optimizations like weak blocks or thin blocks
08:38 < Peter_R_> I read the Popov paper, but I haven't seen Bob's yet.  Does he have something finished?
08:38 < Taek> I don't think his paper is finished. I've got my own proposal here: http://blog.sia.tech/2016/05/14/towards-a-sub-second-block-size/
08:39 < Peter_R_> I think the braids are pretty cool, but I haven't spent enough time studying them to have an informed opinion yet.
08:39 < Peter_R_> Thanks for the link!  I'll take a look.
08:39 < Taek> do you have a link to the Popov paper? It's not ringing a bell for me
08:40 < Peter_R_> http://www.the-blockchain.com/docs/Tangle%20-%20a%20cryptocurrency%20for%20Internet-of-Things%20industry%20-%20blockchain%20alternative.pdf
08:41 < Taek> Oh, that one. I... do not agree with using Monte-Carlo to determine whether or not a transaction is valid. Seems abusable
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08:46 < Taek> Peter_R_: if someone were to try and attack the network by releasing a bunch of multi-spend txns to different parts of the world, would it destory thin blocks ability to propagate efficiently?
08:46 < Taek> nodes would have significant conflicts
08:47 < Peter_R_> Not sure I'm following.  What does the "multi-spend" matter?
08:47 < Taek> nodes don't accept or relay conflicting transactions
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08:48 < Taek> so, if my block is 80% transactions that you saw as double spends, you aren't going to have any of those 80%
08:48 < Taek> slowing propagation
08:48 < instagibbs> any sort of thin blocks technique requires mempool consistency for efficiency, yes
08:48 < Peter_R_> Oh I see what you mean.  Yes, the performance of Xthin relies on mempools being "fairly" in sync.
08:49 < instagibbs> i mean, if you dont have the data, you literally have no choice but to get it sent
08:49 < Taek> I believe that requirement opens up a significant DoS vector
08:49 < Taek> especially if miner's start doing more selfish mining
08:50 < Taek> weak blocks have a stronger resistance to that type of manipulation, since putting something in the mempool requires work
08:50 < instagibbs> miners can slow down block propagation of their blocks easily
08:50 < instagibbs> by selectively releasing slowly
08:51 < instagibbs> or not sending it at all
08:51 < instagibbs> :/
08:51 < Peter_R_> Don't know.  I'd have to wrap my head around the underlying math and try to model this.
08:51 < Taek> instagibbs: but once it's out they can't control how fast it gets propagated. If they are doing mempool manipulation though, they can ensure that propagation is slow even beyond their own slow announcement
08:51 < Peter_R_> Personally, I'd like to see Xthin AND something like subchains (weak blocks):
08:51 < Peter_R_> http://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/resources/subchains.pdf
08:52 < instagibbs> Taek, this issue already exists in the relay network
08:52 < instagibbs> and any non-send-all-block schemes
08:52 < instagibbs> I don't think this is solvable
08:53 < Taek> I'm currently convinced that Jute sovles these issues, though it's a brutal hardfork
08:53 < instagibbs> ill need a link for that
08:54 < Taek> http://blog.sia.tech/2016/05/14/towards-a-sub-second-block-size/
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08:55 < Peter_R_> Taek, I just finished your article on Jute.  What I don't understand is how you know with reasonable certainty that your transaction has been confirmed.  Couldn't their always be a more advanced thread that will cancel your TX with a double spend?
08:55 < instagibbs> I don't think it's solvable in Bitcoin* :P
08:55 < Peter_R_> Not saying this is bad...just trying to understand how long you have to wait
08:55 < Taek> Peter_R_: it's actually got the same exact security guarantee as Bitcoin
08:55 < Taek> which is, the blocks might be orphaned/reorged, but after a certain depth you have a good idea that it's unlikely
08:55 < instagibbs> oh yeah I read the Jute thing, breaking spv, heh. Good luck :)
08:56 < Peter_R_> Right, but have you figured out how the math works?  What the probabilities of a TX being dropped after 2 sec, 20 seconds, 200 seoonds?
08:56 < Taek> There's a property of Jute which means that any thread reorging your transaction must have more work in it than the amount of work confirming your transaction
08:56 < Peter_R_> I understood that part.
08:57 < Peter_R_> It is very cool stuff!
08:57 < Taek> It depends on how much blocks are lagging on average. If blocks are lagging by 10 seconds you're going to get a different number than if they are lagging by 100 seconds
08:57 < Taek> but, there's a cliff at 10 minutes iirc, so once you are 10 minutes confirmed + some change, you've got extremely high certainty
08:57 < Taek> barring some miner with the ability to temporarily double their hashrate (by overclocking or something similar)
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08:58 < Taek> instagibbs: I don't think SPV is that valuable
08:58 < Peter_R_> That's what I'd expect.  I'd like to understand the math behind that better though.
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08:58 < Peter_R_> Is Jute much different from Bob's Braids?
08:59 < instagibbs> Taek, me neither, but Bitcoin kind of has it as a permanent social contract
08:59 < instagibbs> Peter_R_, it allows conflicting txns, braids doesnt
08:59 < Peter_R_> OK thanks
09:00 < Taek> There are a lot of things in common, but Bob's Braids achieve consistency through cohort analysis, which is different from Jute's method of turning a dag into a linked list
09:00 < Taek> I would propose the dag->LL process as the most innovative thing about Jute
09:01 < Peter_R_> Gotcha
09:01 < Taek> instagibbs: you could bring SPV back by having miners commit to Merkle trees of  transactions that are 30 mintues confirmed or something like that
09:01 < katu> Taek: does the cohort scheme allow for spv, or its the same deal as jute?
09:02 < Taek> katu: naive Jute breaks SPV because it allows conflicting transactions to appear in the POW chain
09:02 < katu> yeah
09:02 < Taek> Bob's Braids (now known as BB) does not allow conflicting blocks iirc, therefore SPV is preserved
09:03 < katu> well, another thing how useful spv really is at that point
09:03 < katu> assuming both schemes produce frequent runs of uber-short blocks
09:04 < Taek> SPV would have to adjust to ignore anything with fewer than X confirmations, which isn't so bad
09:04 < Taek> I'm pretty sure both schemes would have a security resolution faster than 10 minutes
09:05 < katu> was thinking more in terms block headers
09:05 < katu> there will be far more of thistory with sub-second blocks
09:06 < Taek> I don't understand the paper yet, but: http://fc16.ifca.ai/bitcoin/papers/KLS16.pdf
09:06 < Taek> suggests that you can determine how much work is in a chain without having all of the headers
09:06 < Taek> I think it's as good as log(n), which is pretty significant
09:07 < Taek> that said, I still think it's a much better security model to just point at a node you trust, whether it's a full node in your house, one at your local university, or one run by a corporation you trust
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09:08 < Taek> hmm. Maybe I take that back
09:10 < katu> yeah, i'm still waiting for big wave of eclipse attack heists on exchanges to really start :)
09:11 < katu> matter of time till someone dumps the nxt or blackcoin PoC, same as with same r sigs :/
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09:17 < Taek> Eclipse attacks can be somewhat defended against by having an awareness of the amount of work being produced suddenly dropping
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09:18 < Taek> I also read the other day that long confirmations are less secure than short confirmations, which completely makes sense but hadn't occurred to me before
09:18 < Taek> if you get 3 confirmations in 2 hours, it means an attacker had 2 hours to build up a competing chain
09:19 < Taek> otoh, if those three confirmations happen in 20 minutes, the attacker only had 20 minutes to build up a competing chain
09:19 < Taek> And I'll propose that as another advantage of braids: you have a much higher resolution on the amount of work happening
09:21 < katu> Taek: yeah, its not *that* bad as with PoS chains, where history can be remade fairly easily
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09:21 < katu> still, not entirely convinced spv client can scan just the chain from random tip up to some checkpoint without ever having to step through genesis
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09:31 < bsm117532> Peter_R_, Taek, katu: I'm just about done with the braids paper, here's the latest results if you haven't seen it yet: https://rawgit.com/mcelrath/braidcoin/master/Braid%2BExamples.html
09:31 < bsm117532> meat is at the bottom.
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09:33 < Taek> The orphan rate is something that a miner could manipulate by intentionally being slow
09:33 < bsm117532> Yes, but I think that's actually desirable.
09:34 < bsm117532> e.g. running over an anonymizing network like Tor.
09:34 < Taek> hmm true
09:34 < Taek> I think the more worrysome attack would be a miner hiding orphans to make the network seem faster
09:34 < bsm117532> So there's a balance, miners can push the effective block time up or down, to satisfy other considerations.
09:35 < Taek> as long as the slowest 5% can't be iteratively pushed off the network
09:35 < bsm117532> Taek: I haven't specified the consensus rules yet for accepting beads, but there's going to be a hard cutoff after which a bead would be accepted.  (slow beads push you to the right of the curve and exponentially increase cohort size -- and are a DoS attack)
09:36 < bsm117532> However there's no other advantage to withholding beads (selfish mining doesn't work).  So I doubt anyone would do it.
09:37 < bsm117532> e.g. if your bead's timestamp is older than the median of cohort bead time (minus 4*$a$ or something) then your bead gets discarded.
09:37 < katu> bsm117532: its a robustness sacrifice, but as long people can conditionally disable that in times of emergency, its maybe ok
09:37 < bsm117532> That is your bead was delayed by more than 4 times the measured network latency.
09:37 < katu> why would chain do that = large reorg due to buggy code
09:38 < bsm117532> katu: I don't understand your comment
09:38 < katu> bsm117532: you simply dont allow "older" blocks, which is typically a large reorg actually
09:39 < bsm117532> Yes, I've been thinking about an alternate algorithm in that case, which would be used to heal/merge network splits.
09:39 < katu> if you do that, large reorgs cant happen, partially defeating the whole point of even having a blockchain
09:40 < bsm117532> It's just that it hurts the cohort algorithm, which is necessarily O(N_C^2) in the size of the cohort N_C.
09:40 < katu> bsm117532: i think detecting extraordinary circumstances (ie the competing branch being reorged into is actually close height or something) might work, or even simple rate limiting it
09:41 < bsm117532> So in the case of a network split, you analyze the two sides separately as seperate cohorts, and specify a different algorithm to merge the split.
09:41 < katu> honestly i have no idea how your proposal works as the cohort systems strikes me as more complex than canonically valid txes, im only vaguely familiar even with jute tho
09:42 < katu> bsm117532: also, please describe state block consensus rules state machine, you lay it out its just one or two simple rules added, i get the impression its far more than that in the end.
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09:44 < bsm117532> Cohort is just a definition of "block" that can determined solely from the graph structure, when the rate of bead publication is faster than the network "size".  The definition of "cohort" involves no additional assumptions.
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09:45 < bsm117532> In Jute or Iota or Sompolimpsky's inclusive blockchain, extra rules are needed to determine a total ordering from a non-synchronous tx publication.  And those rules can be gamed.
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09:54 < bsm117532> katu: still working on the set of consensus rules.
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09:54 < bsm117532> There are a lot of options
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15:14 < kanzure> "Join me on a market for anonymity" http://weis2016.econinfosec.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/05/WEIS_2016_paper_58.pdf (seems to be a joinmarket analysis)
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18:09 < kanzure> "The genome project - write" http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2016/06/03/science.aaf6850
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19:29 < kanzure> precursor to tumblebit paper http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Blindly%20signed%20contracts:%20Anonymous%20on-blockchain%20and%20off-blockchain%20bitcoin%20transactions%20-%202016.pdf
19:29 < kanzure> also some other recent privacy things:
19:29 < kanzure> zero knowledge contingent payments without script http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Efficient%20zero%20knowledge%20contingent%20payments%20in%20cryptocurrencies%20without%20scripts%20-%202016.pdf
19:29 < kanzure> witness encryption http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/Extractable%20witness%20encryption%20and%20timed-release%20encryption%20from%20bitcoin%20-%202016.pdf
19:29 < kanzure> address clustering http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/The%20unreasonable%20effectiveness%20of%20address%20clustering%20-%202016.pdf
19:29 < kanzure> i guess coinshuffle++ isn't mentioned in today's log (but only because that was yesterday..)
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 05 00:00:20 2016