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07:00 < bsm117532> maaku: It's coming...
07:01 < bsm117532> gmaxwell: The idea is that the verification step is included in my calculation of latency, and miners wouldn't be punished for it.
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10:30 < PeterR> Bob: regarding which distribution to use for block propagation times, did you see the distributions in our Xthin article?
10:30 < PeterR> https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-a0f1e3c23919
10:30 < PeterR> Lognormal fits the empirical data fairly well (although the tails were fatter than even lognormal).
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10:37 < PeterR> Note that we were measuring only a single "hop."
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10:43 < bsm1175321> PeterR thanks, lognormal is no surprise, I'll add it as an option.  Also it's the one-hop distribution I need, and I will sample it on each hop.
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11:05 < katu_> what is this shit about GFW, do they really drop bitcoin connections?[1~
11:06 < katu_> to me the problem with china seems like their state telecoms dont peer with outside world[1;5C[1;5C
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11:11 < fluffypony> katu_: #bitcoin-dev
11:12 < kanzure> "Breaking symmetric cryptosystems using quantum period finding" https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.05973
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11:45 < bavly> hey ?
11:45 < bavly> i need help please
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11:54 < Taek> don't ask to ask just ask
11:55 < PeterR> katu_: I'm not sure what the underlying mechanism is, but blocks propagate through the GFC significantly slower than across the normal P2P.
11:55 < PeterR> We present a bunch of pertinent data here:
11:55 < PeterR> https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-792a752c14c2
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11:56 < katu_> PeterR: the mechanism is crap and expensive HK bandwidth
11:56 < katu_> because asia
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11:57 < bavly> i have a wallet on bitcoin core . and although i am sure that some one sent to my addres bitcoins they dont appear in balance or even pending
11:57 < PeterR> What I thought was interesting was that the GFC slowed down Xthin blocks by a smaller factor than it slowed down standard blocks.
11:57 < fluffypony> bavly: ask in #bitcoin, this is for discussing theoretical cryptocurrency ideas
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11:58 < katu_> PeterR: there are workarounds of course, like partitioning the blocks among many peers and let them bypass the narrow gullet
11:59 < PeterR> katu_: agreed.  @thezerg is working on some similar ideas right now.
12:01 < katu_> PeterR: very good sample data is torrents with high chinese peer presence. each individual peer can push like 5kb/s internationally (even if it gets fttx speeds on mainland). but bittorrent overcomes it easily, it simply talks to 200 peers.
12:05 < katu_> anyhow, i'm not a big fan of hacks like that as they depend on highly diversified p2p network, which bitcoin sadly is not (compared to bittorrent).
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12:06 < katu_> i wonder what happened to blockheader-first and set reconcilation proposals
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12:06 < PeterR> Did you see the Xthin results I just linked?  Xthin blocks made it through the GFC about 10 times faster than standard blocks.
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12:08 < katu_> PeterR: i cant read the log graph very well, whats the mean avg?
12:09 < katu_> my mean average latency from europe to most of china is 350ms, so it should be around that number.
12:09 < PeterR> 17.4 seconds (std. blocks) versus 1.8 seconds (Xthin)
12:09 < PeterR> It's what's shown in the first figure in the article.
12:10 < PeterR> The *median* time for Xthin through the GFC was 0.66 sec.
12:10 < PeterR> The mean is a lot longer than the median because of the ~lognormal distribution.
12:11 < katu_> thats pretty decent for a federated network
12:11 < PeterR> Thanks.  We were quite pleased with the results.
12:11 < katu_> still, true bittorrent-like partitioning can get near true network latency provided you get sufficient amount of nodes on both sides
12:11 < PeterR> Agreed.
12:12 < katu_> (and i kinda like the idea of federated transport as an intermediary solution). though i'd organize your PR a bit differently.
12:13 < katu_> ie directly ask pools for small cut according to measured orphan rate you reduced
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12:13 < PeterR> Yes!
12:13 < PeterR> I was brainstorming ideas like this yesterday.
12:13 < PeterR> I think it could be made to work somehow...
12:14 < katu_> anyhow, gmaxwell apparently hates your guts
12:15 < katu_> so theres a chance core will be fixed to do something smarter than it currently does
12:15 < katu_> destroying your business model in the process
12:15 < katu_> its a risky enterprise :)
12:16 < katu_> (but ultimately with good outcome for bitcoin either way, so kudoz to you :)
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12:18 < PeterR> Haha the only pay off I'm looking for is the smile on my face when that first 1.1 MB block gets mined.
12:18 < katu_> wait, is this endeavor part of core/classic drama?
12:19  * katu_ had the impression both had the same slow blockprop
12:19 < PeterR> Xthin has been part of Bitcoin Unlimited since March and is now part of XT too.
12:20 < PeterR> There is an experimental branch of Classic that supports it, but the main Classic client does not (at the moment)
12:23 < katu_> oh, you do primitive set recon
12:23 < katu_> i thought you were merely a relay network
12:23 < katu_> PeterR: any plans for true IBF epstein set recon?
12:24 < katu_> i think it was
12:24 < katu_> .t https://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/pubs/EppGooUye-SIGCOMM-11.pdf
12:24 < yoleaux> katu_: Sorry, I don't know what timezone that is. If in doubt, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tz_database_time_zones for a list of options.
12:24 < katu_> bah
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12:25 < katu_> hmm, apparently old topic, https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/e20c3b5a1d4b97f79ac2
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12:26 < PeterR> Personally, I think Xthin + subchains + optimistic mining (headers first) will give us all the scaling we need.
12:27 < katu_> personally, i trust gmaxwell on this, optimistic mining assumes everyone behaves rationally within bitcoin closed system
12:27 < katu_> but thats an assumption too weak
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12:27 < PeterR> But optimisitic mining results in a small profitability advantage for a miner.  How do you stop them from doing it?
12:28 < instagibbs> katu_, I've become more pessimistic re:IBLT and the like
12:28 < instagibbs> obviously mempool sync is nice
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12:29 < instagibbs> Matt has a new relay network up and running which does UDP+FEC for latency reduction(plus gossip for mempool). Something like that seems to be the best bet.
12:29 < instagibbs> it's not p2p though, more work would be needed for that
12:29 < Taek> you can solve the optimistic mining problem by allowing conflicting transactions to appear in a block (and ignoring them). This breaks SPV, but there are some latency based methods of fixing it
12:29 < instagibbs> (you can't just relay data willy nilly, actually have to validate or get DoS banned)
12:30 < Taek> for example, in the coinbase transaction you could include the merkle root of all valid transaction in the block 3 blocks back
12:30 < instagibbs> Taek, I thought the DAG Days were over ;) another one
12:30 < Taek> I'm pretty convinced that a dag construction is superior in most ways
12:31 < PeterR> Still waiting to read Bob's paper :D
12:31 < Taek> and I'm also convinced that, if SPV is a blocking factor, there are simple ways to bring it back
12:32 < instagibbs> Taek, I do not believe a tree is the best thing, surely :)
12:32 < Taek> I am curious what your doubts are
12:32 < bsm1175321> SPV is straightforward if you can organize things into blocks from the DAG, that's what my "cohorts" are.
12:32 < instagibbs> tree meaning the chain we have now
12:32 < Taek> oh
12:33 < Taek> even if you are using a chain, you can still enable safe opportunistic mining without breaking SPV
12:33 < instagibbs> I think some sort of DAG like thing plus miners not being in charge of validation is best. But that's still, erm, unbaked
12:33 < Taek> you just add a few blocks of latency
12:33 < Taek> well, and it's a hardfork
12:33 < Taek> unless you do 'segregatedtransaction' :)
12:34 < katu_> instagibbs: simplest solution would be just to punish miners who intentionally break the network with selfish / "optimistic" mining. that way the dynamic system can be reduced to the most simple game theoretic model where everybody loses.
12:34 < katu_> and the incentive is to simply build robust relaying.
12:34 < katu_> sadly the punishment does not work that well in practice
12:34 < katu_> miners still mine on spv pools etc :/
12:35 < PeterR> katu_: I don't see optimisitic mining as a problem to be "solved" (I see it as a positive).  What exactly are you worried about?  That miners will stop validating *completely*?
12:38 < katu_> PeterR: remind me what optimistic means again. mining on top of a tip you didnt verify "optimistically" ?
12:39 < PeterR> It means you would start mining once you've received the block header and verified the PoW but before you've downloaded and verified all the transactions.
12:39 < katu_> it simply breaks core assumptions that double spenders cant hijack hashpower for their attempt, not even temporarily. it still effectively boosts hashpower of attempted doublespend.
12:39 < PeterR> You set a timer and STOP optimistic mining if you don't verify the complete block by the deadline
12:39 < katu_> yes.
12:39 < katu_> and that time period is hijacked hashpower
12:40 < katu_> the longer the deadline, the worse it gets. i agree that short deadlinse (<100ms) wouldnt matter much
12:41 < PeterR> Yes, that is a valid point.  I'd like to see the math for this, however.  I bet it comes out as insignificant for any reasonable optimistic-mining time period.
12:41 < katu_> but past second it starts to feel uncomfortable
12:41 < katu_> thats 1/600 of a big chinese pool for me, yay
12:41 < PeterR> I was thinking about 6 sec (1%).
12:42 < PeterR> But I don't have any math to back that up...just gut feel.
12:42 < PeterR> Maybe I'll try to analyze this properly....
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12:43 < katu_> PeterR: granted, this concerns 1-conf transactions for the most part, but might break some more complex assumptions (ie parasitic chains, contracts)
12:43 < PeterR> Yes.
12:44 < PeterR> Ok got to get back to work.  Thanks for the chat!
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12:54 < nicolagreco> exit
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12:55 < nicolag> can anyone help me understand Async Common Subset?
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14:13 < midnightmagic> not really sure why rizun is welcome here given the fairly extreme provocation and promotion of cartoons of people being killed.
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14:16 < fluffypony> I felt it prudent to keep quiet, katu_ was doing just fine in defense of secure system design :-P
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15:21 < dgenr8> lognormal propagation is much simpler to work with than the alternatives i looked at. it's a bit hard to justify though - often it arises from a multiplicative sequence, and how does that model t(one network hop)?
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15:26 < dgenr8> katu_: optimistic miners build empty blocks, so no help to double spenders
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15:33 < bsm1175321> dgenr8: I have a network simulation for braids, latencies are calculated as distances on the surface of a sphere.  I'm just inserting an additional delay drawn from a lognormal distribution to model the long-tails of real-world propagation.
15:37 < katu_> dgenr8: the offending transaction is already embedded in the block prior on which optimistic miners blindly mine on, thus lending him more hashpower.
15:38 < katu_> my assumption is they also blindly broadcast without waiting for the block to verify.
15:41 < katu_> (sadly i couldnt find concise description of what xthin actually _does_, thus i'm assuming the worst)
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15:55 < katu_> in case it witholds the block, attack surface is smaller, but still exists - winning hashes are semi-public for pools. it becomes non-technical debate whether or not individual miners would leak those, again, something im not entirely comfortable with.
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16:41 < PeterR> katu_: there's a diagram and a brief description of how Xthin works in Fig. 1 here:
16:41 < PeterR> https://medium.com/@peter_r/towards-massive-on-chain-scaling-presenting-our-block-propagation-results-with-xthin-da54e55dc0e4
16:41 < PeterR> And here is the original Xthin BUIP by Peter Tschipper:
16:41 < PeterR> https://bitco.in/forum/threads/buip010-passed-xtreme-thinblocks.774/
16:42 < PeterR> Xthin is unrelated to optimistic mining.
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19:33 < slackircbridge1> <dts> He's really trying to Orwell the SPV mining as "optimistic mining"
19:33 < slackircbridge1> <dts> What a total douche
19:38 < nsh> (personal comments are off-topic)
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19:50 < slackircbridge1> <dts> woah how did he see what I said
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 17 00:00:32 2016