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01:40 < katu_> amiller: not really
01:40 < katu_> hijacking 800 prefixes is *incredibly* load
01:40 < katu_> *loud
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06:55 < Taek> "The typical example is that say I have a program that needs to divide two numbers, division is a complex operation but instead I can provide an extra input where I say this is the result of the division and it does multiplication to verify."
06:56 < Taek> That's a potentially fun way to think about lite-clients. You give them the on-chain data, and then you give them *extra* data, and using that extra data they are able to substantially reduce their computational overhead
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07:22 < Taek> "Iused to work on quantum ish stuff. They argued that quantum computing would never exist, because the cost of computing would scale exponentially with the number of bits. (laughter) I think we're running out of time, but I did want to bring up the issue of quantum computing and the future of bitcoin. There are some criticism about the lack of preparation regarding what bitcoin has been doing regarding post-quantum. There should be a quantum
07:22 < Taek> resistant system." -> has the state of the art of quantum computing evolved? I thought practical quantum computing was still not on the visible horizon
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07:29 < c0rw1n> it still very much was not last time i looked ( 1 or 2 years ago )
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07:34 < Taek> The boneh transcript is super interesting. kanzure has said it about 40 times at this point, but y'all should definitely read it: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/dan-boneh/
07:34 < katu_> Taek: yes
07:35 < katu_> all about superposition on SQUIDs now
07:44 < bsm117532> Entropy is a bitch, and will remain so.  The D-Wave device is not a quantum computer, but rather a massively parallel simulated annealing machine. It's important to figure out which problems can be mapped onto the D-Wave model.
07:45 < Taek> from what I remember, none of the problems important to cryptography can be mapped onto the D-Wave model.
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07:52 < Taek> andytoshi: seems to me like payment channels would be inviable with mimblewimble (henceforce MW). Given that payment channels provide excellect opportunity for both scaling and privacy (insert massive amounts of engineering here), does that mean that MW is not an improvement unless we can somehow recover that upgrade?
07:58 < katu_> bsm117532: its more like that you can't run an algorithm in such a noisy environment, i'd not call it simulated annealing though, if google acked that it's for reals.
07:58 < katu_> batch processing can be still useful, just not to run shor yet.
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08:07 < instagibbs> Taek, it's not compatible with scripting in general, unfortunately. I think in practice you'd have a two-tier system. One with CT, one CT-OWAS
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09:51 < Taek> another thing that worries me about OWAS is the flood-network nature of transaction propagation.
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09:51 < Taek> If I'm a forensic company that specializes in de-anonymizing Bitcoin transactions, it's not that much work for me to spin up a ton of nodes and try to get a broad view of the flood network
09:52 < instagibbs> I'm guessing we'd probably replace the p2p network anyways :P
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09:53 < Taek> is there a lot of work being done in that direction?
09:53 < instagibbs> the p2p stuff is being refactored, if that's what you mean
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09:53 < Taek> from a theoretical standpoint, the flood network is one of my least favorite parts of Bitcoin. I don't think I'm alone in this, but I also don't recall seeing a lot of research being done exploring alternatives
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10:28 < fkinglag> WTB GRC or BTC with $9 amazon payment money (not giftcard)
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10:54 < kanzure> taek: OWAS can work on p2p flood network
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11:00 < Taek> kanzure: the problem is that an adversary who is watching transactions flow around and be merged is going to be able to separate them. Someone looking at the blockchain after-the-fact will not be able to, but unless I'm missing something an attack will still be able to ~know which inputs and outputs are associated with which parties
11:00 < Taek> I guess you could release the transactions through a mixnet of some sort
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13:18 < laurentmt> Hi there ! Just a question about MimbleWimble : the article cites 4 or 5 millions utxos in the blockchain but we currently have around 40 millions utxos. Is it a typo or do I miss a technical subtility (it's likely) ?
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13:19 < bsm117532> My quick mental calculation came up with 40M as well.
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13:20 < laurentmt> Well, if it's a typo, I fear the scalability improvement doesn't hold since we would have to compare 80GB to 135GB
13:21 < laurentmt> anyway, it doesn't remove anything to the cleverness of the idea
13:21 < laurentmt> :)
13:21 < bsm117532>   "txouts": 40694684,
13:21 < laurentmt> yep. Got the same numbers
13:22 < bsm117532> straight from the horse's mouth.
13:22 < bsm117532> Where the horse is bitcoind.
13:22 < laurentmt> and if I correct, estimations done by the author at the end of the paper correspond to 5millions utxos
13:22 < laurentmt> (15GB for 5M utxos and 15GB for 150M txs)
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13:25 < laurentmt> s/I correct/I'm correct
13:28 < gmaxwell> scalablity is usually more about the asymtopics, not the constant factors...
13:29 < gmaxwell> e.g. advance the clock forward n years.  history keeps growing, the utxo set should taper.
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14:05 < JackH> anyone seen ByzCoin and has any comment to it?
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14:36 < bsm117532> reading the blog post now...http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/08/04/byzcoin/
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14:38 < midnightmagic> heading towards 90G for a full node install plus a reasonable-sized wallet.
14:39 < bsm117532> JackH: PBFT generally scales very badly as the number of nodes increases.
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14:41 < bsm117532> PBFT has to poll all nodes and have a quorum respond, so the communication scales like N^2 in terms of N nodes.
14:42 < bsm117532> Also, they generally have a leader, which in my opinion is a bad idea because an attacker can just attack the leader...
14:42 < bsm117532> amiller may have fixed both these criticisms with honey badger though https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/199
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14:44 < JackH> i will read this
14:45 < bsm117532> Bitcoin by contrast has an ex-post-facto leader, in that you don't know who is going to produce the next block, but the role of creating a block is akin to a "leader" in PBFT.
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14:46 < bsm117532> This leaderless decentralization of attack surface is very important to Bitcoin's security, IMHO, and I want Bitcoin to keep it's ex post facto nature, in general.
14:47 < bsm117532> I would love to see an altcoin that was Honey Badger + posting of PoW hashes, if Honey Badger does indeed solve these problems.
14:49 < bsm117532> From ByzCoin: "Overall, tree-based collective signing reduces communication complexity from quadratic to logarithmic"
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14:51 < instagibbs> andytoshi, im now fairly convinced that utxo commitment solves stuff, *if* full nodes allow alternative histories to exist, or even bad ones, as long as they one they commit to is a valid history
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14:52 < instagibbs> the one sticky point is historical inflation, as online nodes will reject these, but new ones wont
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14:54 < instagibbs> s/historical inflation/previous illegal inflation that got negated out later/
14:55 < bsm117532> JackH: "Handle (hopefully rare) PBFT deadlock events" -- one way to take down a PBFT is to throw it into its "leader election" phase, which has even worse complexity than the standard case, and progress cannot be made (tx not posted) without a leader.
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14:56 < bsm117532> I also worry a lot that if there is any advantage to being the leader (like extracting tx fees or block rewards, or transaction selection/censorship) it will be gamed.
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17:04 < andytoshi> Taek: why do you think payment channels are inviable? what do i need beyond multisig and locktimeverify (both of which i believe i can do)
17:06 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: also, other features could be used but would only have SPV like security... no one seems to whine about the more than a few altcoins that only have spv like security of history period.
17:06 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: that's a very good point, though i wish this tradeoff didn't have to be made for everyone at once (i guess sidechains mitigate this)
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17:08 < andytoshi> regarding nobody whining about these coins, unless you're referring to "the only actual node is poloniex" security model, the only coins i'm aware of which deliberately have SPV-like security are just too small to be worth forging a chain for
17:09 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: no I mean the more than a few thing that can run off utxo snapshots.
17:09 < gmaxwell> e.g. go-ethereum in the recommended --fast mode, or any of several others than I can't be bothered to look up the names of right now.
17:09 < andytoshi> ah i see, that's cool, i actually did not know any of that was implemented
17:10 < andytoshi> (though i should've guessed, ethereum at least has a remarkably active developer community)
17:21 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's just how it works it has commitments to everything.
17:22 < gmaxwell> it's not a "also did" its "the way its done"
17:24 < gmaxwell> downside is that it seems almost no thought was given to the efficiency of the commitment scheme... so probably part of the reason the sync is so much slower (in terms of time per transaction) than Bitcoin.
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18:00 < pigeons> is that was this is referring to? https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/4vmh35/meth_users_re_assure_each_other_that_etc_the_coin/d5zxr7s?st=irci5tcm&sh=bcbbaec2
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21:47 < Taek> ah glanced over the part where you think timelock is possible. Though it's weird to think about having a timelocked transaction that gets obliterated after all the outputs are spent.
21:48 < Taek> I think also worth stating that I find the privacy aspects of MW more interesting than the scalability aspects, the 80GB -> 30GB is certainly big, but doesn't seem like enough to get 7 billion people online
21:49 < Taek> you might not have to throw out so many features if you are willing to skip the history-deleting bit
21:49 < Taek> hmm
21:52 < Taek> on an unrelated note, I found an interesting equation.
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21:53 < Taek> The % hashrate you need to get from the hashrate you currently have to enough hashrate to hit 51% is 104-2y, where 'y' is the amount of hashrate you currently have
21:54 < Taek> So, a miner with 40% hashrate needs to get (104 - 80) 24% of the hashrate to hit a 51% attack
21:54 < Taek> oh it might be 102 - 2y
21:55 < Taek> either way, a miner with 40% hashrate has to invest 50% more than they have already invested to rise from 40% to 50%
21:55 < Taek> that's a jump that is a lot bigger than I had intuitively assumed
21:55 < Taek> A person with 33% hashrate has to *double* their hashrate to get to 51%
21:57 < Taek> I was also able to show that if you have a group of miners who always re-invest their profits, and one miner is more able to convert profits to hashrate, that one miner will asymptotically approach 100% hashrate (assuming there is a linear relationship between money invested and hashrate, which is not how the real world works)
22:08 < gmaxwell> Taek:  you get a majority if you increase your hashrate by a factor of (1/s)-1   where s is your proportion of hashrate.
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22:09 < Taek> nifty
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