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14:02 < FNinTak> Re: ASICs; is there any reason to expect an ASIC for some PoW function to never be developed?
14:03 < FNinTak> Seems like Memory-hard functions or even Proofs-of-Storage would only delay this until marketcap reaches some threshold
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14:09 < kanzure> FNinTak: yes that's why one common argument is that the function needs to be simple. by using something with hidden obscure optimizations, you're bifurcating the market into people who are clever enough to know to make those optimizations on their asics, etc...
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14:17 < luke-jr> FNinTak: the idea behind memory-hard and proof-of-storage is that everyone already can get the ASIC; otherwise, an ASIC can always be made
14:18 < FNinTak> Agreed; my question is more that even in those situations, the incentive to create new ASICs is a function of marketcap
14:19 < FNinTak> Which, if significant optimizations are possible, doesn't solve the problem of centralized mining...
14:21 < luke-jr> if you already have an ASIC, the optimizations possible are much reduced in theory
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14:23 < luke-jr> eg, if you had a truly memory-hard PoW, then the best you could do is replace the PC with a FPGA controller to reduce build costs (but not runtime costs)
14:23 < luke-jr> this is assuming the PoW relies on the memory being reliable of course; otherwise you could perhaps get a small boost by then overclocking it
14:23 < luke-jr> but even that shouldn't be nearly as significant as a formerly non-ASIC algo
14:24 < luke-jr> essentially it makes it into a hardware competition, rather than competing against emulators (CPU/GPU mining)
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14:24 < FNinTak> Or fab an FPGA with High-Bandwidth Memory, where the memory dies sit on top of the FPGA itself
14:25 < luke-jr> perhaps
14:26 < FNinTak> re hardware competition: by definition the devices available to average consumers will lag significantly behind enterprise-level products, for which access is restricted
14:27 < luke-jr> access is not currently restricted, and general-purpose use means that is unlikely to change just for mining
14:28 < cjd> There's a pow function called Argon2 which supposedly uses data dependent behavior which means branching and that knocks out most SIMD stuff (GPU), if I understand it properly it's designed so that the best ASIC for attacking this is almost identical to a commodity CPU
14:28 < luke-jr> cjd: that'd be bad :p
14:28 < luke-jr> CPUs are extremely complex
14:28 < cjd> because botnets?
14:29 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> FNinTak: I very much enjoyed a talk a few months ago from Adam Back, where he suggested that you could design an ASIC that solves arbitrary CPU-based PoW problems faster than a CPU can.
14:29 < luke-jr> because you're just giving Intel/AMD a monopoly on mining
14:29 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> The idea was that you could design something that's basically a general-purpose CPU, but with a reliability of only 90 - 95% rather than the much higher reliability needed for commercial CPU's
14:30 < cjd> ahh, nice trick
14:30 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Totally useless for general purpose computing, but would probably be a lot faster at mining
14:30 < cjd> If you want a "task" which is really really hard to do on anything other than a CPU, look at compiling C code like e.g. the linux kernel
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14:31 < sipa> cjd: pow functions which are hard to do on anything but a general purpose cpu usually have very nontrivial avenues for algorithmic optimization
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14:32 < luke-jr> cjd: not all tasks can be PoW ;)
14:32 < sipa> typical example: say you create a PoW function which consists of 1000 different hash algorithms, and the used one depends on a simple hash of the data
14:32 < cjd> sipa: That agrees with my intuition
14:32 < sipa> you'd think you need to build an asic that can do all 1000 algorithms
14:32 < luke-jr> might be nice to use SNARK execution as a PoW though - at least then we'd have secondary use cases for the ASICs
14:33 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> luke-jr: you could hypothetically turn any task into a SNARK circuit, and use the SNARK proving and verifying algos as the mining and verifying algos.
14:33 < sipa> but no, you can just select the subset of data that uses a single pow function
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14:33 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> luke-jr: heh, great minds think alike it seems
14:33 < sipa> and if that gives you a 1000x fold power improvement, it will beat general purpose cpus
14:33 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> (I'm not saying that using SNARKs for that is necessarily a good idea.  Just that it occurred to me as a possibility.)
14:33 < sipa> qpm: alike minds call eachother great :)
14:33 < cjd> yeah, I found the scrypt time-memory tradeoff back in 2010 before litecoin was implemented
14:34 < FNinTak> Working code for Argon2d: https://github.com/p-h-c/phc-winner-argon2
14:34 < cjd> FNinTak: you're going to want Argon2i for this
14:34 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> sipa: I know, I actually strongly dislike the phrase "great minds think alike" since it discourages independent thought / innovation.  Yet I still find myself using it occasionally.
14:34 < cjd> modulo what sipa says :)
14:35 < FNinTak> Also @luke-jr RISC-V CPUs would stand a chance here
14:37 < FNinTak> cjd: you sure? 2d is the variant data-dependent access patterns
14:41 < FNinTak> Simple possibly-memory-hard PoW here, not aware of a formal name: http://6857coin.csail.mit.edu:8080/
14:41 < FNinTak> Just multiple partial collisions on hashes
14:41 < cjd> oh I'm sorry, you're right it's Argon2d
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14:48 < kanzure> dan mentioned argon is lacking a security proof ( http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/dan-boneh/ )
14:48 < kanzure> "Can we build a hash function that is memory hard, but the memory access pattern is independent of the password being hashed?it can depend on a salt, but not the password. The answer is yes. Argon is one of the candidates that provides this. Unfortunately argon doesn't have a security proof, and we were able to show a time-space tradeoff, in the version that has a constant... there was a recent paper that does give a ... time-space ...
14:48 < kanzure> ... tradeoff on argon, and then it shows that tradeoff is optimal."
14:49 < kanzure> cjd: ^
14:53 < cjd> There's always *a* space/time, it should just be very expensive
14:54 <@gmaxwell> these functions are not interesting as hashcash, as they are symmetrically hard to verify.
14:54 <@gmaxwell> or at least not very interesting.
14:55 < Alanius> gmaxwell: do you mean any memory-hard function, or specifically the argon family?
14:55 <@gmaxwell> Alanius: the argon family (actually also basically every memory hard function discussed in phc)
14:56 <@gmaxwell> wrt "a tradeoff", it's referring to time area product which is what that subfield has decided is the standard for memory hardness. I'm unconvinced by that metric since it ignores that hardware costs are amortized across continued uses but energy is not.
14:57 < FNinTak> Which is then an argument against energy-efficient PoWs?
15:01 < maaku> this channel is bifurcated into those obsessed with PoW, and those who couldn't care less :\
15:02 < qpm> * tx:Jeremy_Rand finds PoW discussion highly interesting in small occasional doses, is definitely not obsessed with it, and is enjoying the current discussion
15:03 <@gmaxwell> I find them profoundly boring, virtually nothing new has been said in the last 4 years.
15:03 <@gmaxwell> most of the things people go on about end up being really severely broken.
15:04 <@gmaxwell> When they're not, they're only "interesting upto constant factors".
15:04 <@gmaxwell> which is the most limited type of interesting
15:04 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> gmaxwell: I'll assume that you're correct on that, but for non-experts like me, it is beneficial to see this kind of thing discussed periodically, as it helps us catch up a bit to the experts in the field
15:05 <@gmaxwell> much of it is the same tarpit that sci.crypt suffered in the 90s where everyone and their brother felt the need to cook up their own unsoundly constructed block cipher. Turns out that its much easier to fling out some ideas than to reason about them.
15:05 < kanzure> summaries would probably be more helpful than periodic discussion, although i'm not eager to sit around producing large writeups
15:05 <@gmaxwell> yea I'm not yelling about the conversation, just mostly pointing out that I agree its boring.
15:05 < maaku> Jeremy_Rand: I think what gmaxwell is saying is that this field isn't advancing. It's been in a 4 year rut.  Once you're caught up, it's the same old stuff under new names.
15:06 < maaku> Although I think tromp's work on memory _bandwidth_ limited pow is an exception to that, but it's the only one and still nothing revolutionary...
15:06 < cjd> So I read the mimblewimble paper and it's super interesting but I wish it was post-quantum and I was looking at this https://github.com/shaih/HElib/blob/master/doc/designDocument/he-library.pdf to see if perhaps the same thing could be constructed without knowing the private key
15:06 < Alanius> that does raise the question though, what standards does a development have to satisfy in order to be considered new stuff?
15:06 < kanzure> a small heartwarming data point that some here might appreciate is that according to twitter analytics the dan boneh discussion was much more widely read than the other two recent docs.
15:06 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> kanzure: agree that summaries are more useful in theory, but I think the interactive nature of discussions makes it a bit easier to understand thought processes.  Perhaps a "FAQ"-style summary would be the best of both.
15:07 < kanzure> Jeremy_Rand: yep, need a volunteer or to pay someone to do that.
15:07 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> But yes, agreed that most people who thoroughly understand the topic probably have better things to do than write detailed summaries.
15:08 < FNinTak> I found the ASIC FAQs by apoelstra very useful, a document of a similar format concerning memory-hardness, etc. would be useful
15:08 < kanzure> andytoshi operates on a strict payment schedule of one bottle beer per page minimum
15:09 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> maaku: as an amateur, I perceived the Cuckoo Cycle PoW concept to be an advancement as well, regardless of whether it ends up being usable in the real world.  Is my perception shared by more knowledgeable people?
15:11 < bsm1175321> PoW is the anchor of the coin to the real world.  It's the way real world value is coupled into the coin.  That comes in two forms: initial capital costs, and running costs (electricity).  PoW algorithms generally don't paint themselves on these axes, but should.  I agree with gmaxwell, it's boring...
15:11 < kanzure> an off-topic pile of text that i put together today, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/baidu-deep-learning-for-speech-recognition/
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15:12 < bsm1175321> "memory hard" just shifts the initial capital cost to another form that doesn't require designing an ASIC.
15:13 < kanzure> why would that be true? you can put lots of memory on ASICs.
15:20 < andytoshi> FNinTak: i've been trying to think about memory hardness over the last couple weeks, but i don't have anything more insightful to say than what's in the ASIC paper
15:20 < andytoshi> which is a footnote about how it shifts costs from operating to capital
15:27 < FNinTak> Ah, didn't remember that from my previous reads; that's fair
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15:27 < FNinTak> though there is extra complexity introduced with memory-hardness re: caching and the bounds on much SRAM can be used, etc.
15:28 < FNinTak> Also could be worth mentioned Proofs-of-Storage?
15:30 < bsm1175321> It seems to me that the only way to prove storage is to have storage.  If you've reduced your storage to a small set of proofs that you can verify, then I can reduce it in the same way and you won't know that I don't have your storage until you request it all.  So, the "proof" only works if I know what I'm going to ask you, and you don't.
15:31 < bsm1175321> These proofs are very unlike PoW hashes.
15:31 < Alanius> that sounds very much like it cannot be made non-interactive
15:33 < FNinTak> I'm specifically referencing Spacemint, found here (with code!): https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
15:33 < FNinTak> Nice property of success not being network latency-dpendent
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15:43 < kanzure> andytoshi: see pm
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23:19 < Taek> [18:05:48] <kanzure> summaries would probably be more helpful than periodic discussion, although i'm not eager to sit around producing large writeups
23:19 < Taek> [18:07:29] <qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> kanzure: agree that summaries are more useful in theory, but I think the interactive nature of discussions makes it a bit easier to understand thought processes.  Perhaps a "FAQ"-style summary would be the best of both.
23:20 < Taek> https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf <- this does a pretty good job
23:20 < Taek> [18:33:47] <FNinTak> I'm specifically referencing Spacemint, found here (with code!): https://github.com/kwonalbert/spacemint
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23:21 < Taek> Spacemint has a few issues with it still, such as relying on randomness beacons, and there's still a computation memory-time tradeoff (iirc) that could be exploited if someone draws up a fast enough ASIC
23:21 < Taek> but the core problem still goes back to what gmaxwell said earlier: with storage-based schemes, you move the problem from operating costs to hardware costs
23:22 < Taek> I didn't see an explanation for why this cost is undesirable, so I'll go ahead and expand
23:24 < Taek> If the majority of the lifetime-cost of a Proof-of-Burn scheme (this is what Hashcash and Spacement are - they prove you dedicated resources to a task) is most heavily focused on the one-time-purchase of the hardware, you're much more vulnerable to unexpected events
23:24 < Taek> for example, if the price cuts in half
23:25 < Taek> If the cost of mining was 100% operational, there's a very safe response to a price drop: just turn your machines off.
23:26 < Taek> There's very little opportunity cost associated with that. But if you had spent 99% of your budget on the up-front hardware, you're now facing greater risks over the long term uncertainty of whatever your are mining
23:26 < Taek> But there's also a factor involving incumbents
23:27 < Taek> someone who has hardware which will reasonably last 4 years (a reasonable hard drive lifetime) and is 2 years into the process has already survived most of the risk associated with owning the drives
23:27 < Taek> If the hardware can be made to last forever, then they have a permanent advantage on any newcomers
23:28 < Taek> (the newcomers can utilize the hardware for t years only, but the incumbent will have utilized it for t+X years)
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23:45 < FNinTak> Hmm, didn't think though the response to market events
23:46 < FNinTak> I was thinking that the lack of dependence on operating costs means that the incentive to create an ASIC is now higher than just the expected returns, which is a function of marketcap
23:47 < FNinTak> i.e. it means one-time expenditures like design costs can reasonably be much higher
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