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06:07  * nsh isn't quite sure still why sender/recipient non-ZKness of rangeproof prevents MW tx aggregation
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07:09 < kanzure> anything to interrogate scott aaronson about?
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08:03 < instagibbs> nsh, huh
08:07 < Alanius> you're meeting scott aaronson? O_o
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08:11 < Alanius> how about whether the many-worlds interpretation applies to classical probabilistics as well, since after all the only real difference is the L1 norm versus the L2 norm of quantum mechanics
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08:15 < kanzure> Alanius: apparently scott aaronson has moved from mit.edu to utexas.edu because the former refused to give his wife tenure or something and the latter said sure
08:15 < kanzure> i mentioned the dan boneh doc to him and a few minutes ago he was telling me about seeing dan earlier this week here in austin because usenix
08:32 < kanzure> "CVE-2016-5696 and its effects on tor" https://blog.patternsinthevoid.net/cve-2016-5696-and-its-effects-on-tor.html
08:32 < kanzure> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/75ff39ccc1bd5d3c455b6822ab09e533c551f758
08:34 < fluffypony> I love how the official Linux kernel source tree is on his personal GH account
08:34 < fluffypony> right next to "subsurface - Advanced multi-platform divelog based on Qt"
08:35 < kanzure> iirc he does not consider github anything official for his purposes?
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08:37 < _r0ach_> I'd like to see fluffy take the place of Linus when he dies and just get boozed up on wine in the basement and say, "this weeks kernel will include..."
08:38 < fluffypony> hah hah
08:38 < fluffypony> kanzure: I was just teasing, official sources are kernel.org, and I'm 80% certain they run their own git server on it
08:39 < fluffypony> I've only ever fetched sources via rsync / ftp from there, though
08:39 < kanzure> i have submitted the boneh bitcoin crypto transcript to HN if anyone wants to upvote that :P https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
08:44 < kanzure> hrmm looks like someone is claiming to be auctioning off some malware from equation group http://pastebin.com/NDTU5kJQ
08:55 < kanzure> petertodd: did you ever review the "darkleaks" stuff by any chance?
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09:54 < kanzure> someone has asked me to pester him about busy beaver functions and http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725
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09:56 < kanzure> maybe i should ask him about tromp's binary lambda calculus stuff?
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10:02 < Alanius> ask him why the many-worlds interpretation does not apply to classical randomness
10:03 < kanzure> i refuse to ask anything about MWI
10:05 < kanzure> hm looks like i can pester him about probabilistically checkable proofs and PCP theorem things
10:08 < kanzure> http://scottaaronson.com/papers/
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10:10 < kanzure> "Oracles are subtle but not malicious" http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/subtle.pdf
10:10 < kanzure> "The complexity of agreement" http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/agree-econ.pdf
10:11 < kanzure> "Why philosophers should care about computational complexity" http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/philos.pdf
10:11 < Alanius> oh, don't forget the freebits paper
10:13 < kanzure> this looks like some nonsense in favor of consciousness. i'll pass on that.
10:13 < Alanius> free will rather
10:14 < kanzure> like a free will lunch theorem?
10:15 < kanzure> http://no-free-lunch.org/
10:19 < Alanius> if I recall correctly, the clue is that even if we live in a deterministic world, it might still be impossible for any part of the rest of the universe to predict your choices without changing them
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10:20 < kanzure> what would be bad about prediction though?
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10:22 < Alanius> well, I guess any assignment of meaning to life and the universe implicitly assigns an active role to us human beings, but that would be impossible if all our actions were already set in stone
10:24 < kanzure> for philosophical questions i refer you to http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/astrophysics/The%20meaning%20of%20life%20in%20a%20cosmological%20perspective%20-%20Clement%20Vidal.pdf
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10:25 < Alanius> holy crap, why didn't I read this 10 years ago?
10:25 < Alanius> thanks!
10:26 < kanzure> it is difficult to figure out who to route certain information to... so that is why this process is extremely inefficient.
10:27 < Alanius> uh, yeah, that seems like a particularly relevant fact about computation and information theory
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10:32 < kanzure> also it has been requested that i pester scott about quantum crypto safety topics. so i will do this.
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10:39 < Alanius> if scott aaronson has an already well formed opinion on the alleged quantum security of isogeny-based crypto, I'd be very much interested to learn about that
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11:06 < kanzure> someone has asked that i request from him "a quantum-hard version of confidential transactions"
11:10 < proslogion> lol
11:11 < proslogion> santa aaronson
11:23 < nsh> kanzure, when are you meeting scott?
11:23 < kanzure> sadly... http://lesswrong.com/meetups/1pl
11:24 < nsh> oh
11:24 < nsh> i wouldn't bother trying ot talk about anything intelligent with pop philo groupies in the room
11:25 < pigeons> tell them roku's basilisk says hi
11:26 < nsh> but if you get him somewhere safe have a chat about quantum zero-knowledge proof and pseudo-telepathy games for distributed [no-signalling] computation
11:27 < nsh> also what he thinks about recasting general quantum superposition/entanglement/uncertainy experiments into the context QMA proof schemes
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12:26 < kanzure> "A bunch of cryptographic protocol oddities" http://blog.bjrn.se/2016/08/cabinet-of-curiosities-bunch-of.html
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13:07 < kanzure> "Computational phenomena in physics" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boZyu6NhAcI
13:13 < nsh> also ask SA if he expects that we can prove certain physical scenarios are unlikely through computational complexity arguments more generally than in the context of pathological GR manifolds
13:13 < nsh> which i think was just a good place to first trial the arguments
13:13 < nsh> (firewall paradox stuff)
13:14 < nsh> really i need to get him and susskind in a room at once
13:15 < kanzure> "Pairings in cryptography" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WDOpzxpnTE
13:16 < kanzure> "Algebraic multilinear maps" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK0RXF0YDm0
13:17 < kanzure> "Non-abelian groups in cryptography" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4lv0lXI5uU
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13:41 < kanzure> about reputation systems and negative attestation http://nbviewer.jupyter.org/url/canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/pagerank-extensions.ipynb
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13:57 < kanzure> "Quantum money from hidden subspaces" http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/money.pdf
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15:30 < instagibbs> kanzure, nice thanks for the video, can listen on the go
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16:33 < kanzure> oh right his significant other is pcp theorem expert. how convenient.
16:44 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: well if you're going to talk about pcp theorem stuff, https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/021
16:45 <@gmaxwell> also, https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/324
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21:08 < kanzure> nsh: next time i'll use astral projection to get you a live feed or somthing, sorry about that
21:11 < kanzure> it is interesting how many computer science grad students are not aware of merkle trees
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21:46 < kanzure> [re: why biology is not like software engineering] "... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects."
21:47 < kanzure> "Abstractions work in machine code because we built the machines to make abstractions possible.  Natural cells don't work like that.  The closest thing to cells in the machine code world are demoscene x86 assembly blobs -- filled with insane hacks to make something awesome work in a small amount of space, with lots of weird code and data reuse and generative magic."
21:47 < kanzure> "It's worse than that though.  Never forget that the true "compiler" of DNA is Physics, specifically that of protein folding, conformational dynamics, and catalysis.  It won't be simulated anytime soon with anything approaching useful kinetic accuracy.  (It's not clear if we'll ever get kT-accurate quantum simulations of correlated electron wavefunctions that scale to protein-sized systems, though there is some hope in the far future ...
21:47 < kanzure> ... with exotic computing architectures.)"
21:47 < kanzure> "So ultimately what software useful for synthetic biology is going to do is help us curate all of our brute-force efforts to build and screen  libraries of pseudorational libraries of proteins, pathways, and cells.  -Not- provide shitty abstraction layers that rest upon our incredibly shaky understanding of what's going on circa 2012.  Think of curating an incredibly complicated genetic-programming run across a hundred-thousand ...
21:48 < kanzure> ... clusters -- that gives a better sense of the flavor of what's needed."
21:48 < kanzure> "We invented the light-build long before we understood QFT.  We'll be building amazing cellular machines long before we really understand them quantitatively.  Synbio's (and diybio's) biggest sin is repeatedly elevating the convenient metaphors with EE/CS into a slick-looking action plan that doesn't respect the fundamental differences between these machine architectures."
21:48 < kanzure> "Let me reemphasize the point here.  Programmers can exist because WE built computers -explicitly- to support those abstraction layers.  The Wizards of EE formed a powerful magical convenant that protects all the gentle digital denizens from concerning themselves with the horrors of physical reality that lays sealed beneath the woven lithography.  It took them decades and a trillion dollars to build those magical seals."
21:49 < kanzure> "In biology we haven't even begun to form powerful enough magic to seal away the chaos of physical reality.  Over the next few decades we'll almost certainly rebuild simple microbial cells (piecemeal, haltingly, not all at once) with an increasingly modularized set of signaling components and metabolic cores whose behavior we'll have -evolved- to be isolated and predictable.  It will take bajillions of manhours to do that, and it will ...
21:49 < kanzure> ... almost entirely be done by limited guesswork and brute-force screening (i.e. traditional engineering).  Only once we've untangled the gordian knot of the cell will we be able to construct these magical abstraction layers atop it....  and they'll probably be leaky layers at that."
21:49 < kanzure> "Yes, but what -isn't- hackable?  Look, my gripe here is that cells are really -nothing- like a von neumann machine.  They're both nonlinear dynamical systems that happen to carry lots of "code" that controls their evolution in time.  That's the strongest similarity.  Cells deserve more than crappy metaphors to other kinds of systems.  If y'all really want to improve how we engineer cells, it's worth taking a few years to begin ...
21:49 < kanzure> ... understanding how they really work."
21:50 < kanzure> "Those of you who have not done biology can't realize how primitive things still are. A CS analogy is that we're trying to reverse engineer a non-deterministic alien architecture from the future via a remote debugger over a noisy line that has no error correction and runs at a fraction of a millibaud, where every peek or poke costs hundreds to thousands of dollars. With the advent of high-throughput sequencing we just figured out how ...
21:50 < kanzure> ... to get noisy ROM/RAM dumps (genotype), but still have precious little ability to quickly interact with the biological systems under study (phenotype). Biology is much more like hacking and reverse engineering than it is like physics or mathematics. A working exploit is worth much more than general pontification. The transformative events in biology these days are the clever hacks that enable whole new classes of fast experiments to ...
21:50 < kanzure> ... be done: quick homologous recombination induced by CRISPR, optical interrogation of neural systems using light-sensitive ion channels, the development of adeno-associated viruses for rapid introduction of genetic material, etc. In the coming decades the combination of such clever hacks with cheaper automation and sensors will hopefully bring a flood of new data that will make a predictive, quantitative science of biology possible. ...
21:50 < kanzure> ... With cheap and plentiful data, perhaps clever minds might discover general quantitative principles that we can't see yet. But the data is what's lacking, not cleverness."
21:50 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/GxRTESzUWUI/zd5MpKNzBzgJ
21:50 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/diybio/GxRTESzUWUI/IS-zLDlUu_YJ
21:51 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8832407
21:51 < kanzure> here are some refs from the conversation with scott aaronson and others (requested refs, at least) https://groups.google.com/d/msg/austin-less-wrong/_cJU8awXMLM/PhM_WuXnAAAJ
21:54 < cjd> ;;monologue
21:54 < gribble> Your current monologue is at least 1 line long.
21:54 < kanzure> mumblelogue
21:55 < cjd> it looks interesting though...
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 14 00:00:25 2016