--- Log opened Sun Aug 14 00:00:25 2016
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01:15  * nsh attends
01:16 < nsh> i bet i could weave 100 lithographies
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02:02 < maaku_> That's a good rant
02:03 < maaku_>  Where did it come from?
02:12 < nsh> scott aaronson meet-up presumably
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02:19 < proslogion> can you use range proof to prove the spending amount is within much smaller limits?
02:20 < waxwing> proslogion: sure
02:20 < nsh> range proof can prove any arbitrary range
02:20 < waxwing> size of range proof depends heavily of course on range
02:21 < proslogion> waxwing: nsh is there a asymptotic dependence of the size on the range?
02:21 < nsh> it's just a structure of digit commitments in a connected ring signature [any monotonic function can be proven]
02:21 < waxwing> the borromean optimization is going to be more significant as the range gets larger btw
02:22 < nsh> proslogion, in the alpha-CT implementation it's asymptotically slightly sublinear in the term complexity of the statement
02:22 < proslogion> waxwing: nsh thanks
02:22 < waxwing> yes slightly sublinear due to borromean optimization right
02:23 < proslogion> was wondering if you can use that to support spending limits as with a ETH wallet contract
02:23 < nsh> and if the proof is not required to be ZK wrt transacting parties, you can reclaim ~80% of the blinding factors as a secret message
02:23 < proslogion> so to promote CT use
02:23 < nsh> this defeats the MW aggregation though
02:23 < waxwing> oh, so that's what you meant yesterday :)
02:23 < nsh> well, 80% of the rangeproof
02:23 < proslogion> yes
02:27 <@gmaxwell> you can just look at perfectly linear in the size (in bits) with a very small constant component.
02:35 < waxwing> nsh: what gets reclaimed (at least in the version i saw) is basically all of it: just that last 32 byte forged sig is reserved for amount encoding.
02:35 < waxwing> but now i say that, i'm wondering where the 80% figure came from, i must have misunderstood somewhere, for a ~ 2.5K output it looks like more than 80%?
02:36 <@gmaxwell> (CT is size five group elements worth to code two bits of range, plus a group eliment worth of constant overhead)... of all this one group element out of the five can't be reclaimed, nor the constant overhead.
02:36 < sipa> for every factor 4 in the range proof size, there is 128 bytes or reusable data and 32 bytes of nonreusable
02:36 <@gmaxwell> so it's pretty much precisely 80% that can be reclaimed asymtoptically.
02:37 < waxwing> oh i'm forgetting the commitment
02:37 < nsh> can someone say succinctly why it txs can't be aggregated by pederson commitment if the rangeproof is non-ZK to sender and/or recipient?
02:37 < nsh> -it
02:37 < waxwing>  i mean the "C_i" let's say
02:37 < waxwing> so yes asymptotically 80%, that's clear, thanks gmaxwell
02:38 <@gmaxwell> nsh: the MW technique requires the sender not know the blinding factors of the outputs, if they do, they can just steal them back at any time.
02:38 < nsh> yes, but i think you can allow for shading the hmac seed while protecting the recipient's authentication blinding factor
02:38 < nsh> *sharing
02:39 < nsh> you just have to split the sum again somehow
02:39 <@gmaxwell> I'm forgetting now why the final GE can't be reclaimed.. I was thinking it was because reclaiming it required solving a discrete log prob.. oh yea thats why. you can store data in it, but the reciever learns data*G not data.
02:39 < nsh> oh
02:40 <@gmaxwell> if your data in those fields was very small, they could solve the DLP for them. :P
02:40 < nsh> heh heh :)
02:41 <@gmaxwell> so, e.g. storing an extra couple bytes per 'digit' would be plausable. But it seemed a bit crazy even fore me.
02:41 <@gmaxwell> s/fore/for/
02:41 < nsh> can you weaken your privkey specifically for a bearer of another privkey?
02:41 < nsh> (by the pubkey)
02:42 <@gmaxwell> it's not really a weaken question, just a question of how much range there is.. if you only store 8 bits you can solve the DLP with a little table. :P
02:43 < nsh> i'm not convinced there isn't entropy still to reclaim
02:43 < nsh> to stop sender stealing outputs back they just need to be ignorant of a single additive factor still
02:43 <@gmaxwell> yea, sure you could still store some data.
02:43 < nsh> that means all the other factors can still be shared between sender and recipient through some unwinding mechanism i think
02:44 < nsh> but it might undermine the aggregation security. that's not intuitive to me
02:44 <@gmaxwell> but the direction is wrong.
02:44 < nsh> yes, receiver constructs rangeproof
02:44 < nsh> which is less intrinsically useful
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02:45 <@gmaxwell> if you know the values but not blinding factors, you can still get 3 of 5 of the elements worth... but the reciever in MW creates the range proof as you must know the blinding factor to create it.. and the sender really must not know this.
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02:45  * nsh nods
02:45 <@gmaxwell> MW can be constructed with no value privacy, but it still has a commitment and you need a PoK.
02:45 < nsh> proof of key? (the empty string signing)
02:45 < nsh> proof of knowledge, i mean
02:47 <@gmaxwell> yes.
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06:07 < Taek> It seems to me that with MW you would not be able to use a seed to backup your wallet. When you get sent money, the sender has to send you some information about the outputs you are receiving, which you have to save
06:07 < Taek> being able to re-derive any secrets generated by you wouldn't be sufficient to recover funds.
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06:12 < sipa> Taek: indeed
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07:38 < kanzure> maaku: that particular rant is a combination of observations from jrayhawk, anselm levskaya, michael wittig and a few others. those exact wordings were actually from many years ago. biology sucks. a lot.
07:39 < kanzure> and some aspects from scott aaronson meetup i suppose, yes.
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09:11 < andytoshi> Taek: the sender doesn't need to know anything about the outputs you're receiving
09:12 < andytoshi> well, except the total value
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09:13 < andytoshi> you create the outputs, you can do this totally deterministically. you'll wind up with this excess kG value which gets attached to the tx, and you can't control that (since it's the sum of your blinding factors and the sender's) but that's fine, you don't need to keep it
09:13 < andytoshi> you make a PoK for it then forget it
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09:41 < fluffypony> Ring Confidential Transactions implementation has been PR'd to Monero, if anyone wants to take a glance at the interesting bits: https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/pull/961
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17:32 < andytoshi> fluffypony: i'm curious why the key image is still xH(P)P when you're using the liu-wei-wong signatures rather than the old saberhagen ones
17:33 < andytoshi> it should be sufficient for the key image of P = xG to be I = xH, where H is a fixed NUMS point
17:33 < andytoshi> saves a lot of hashing for the verifier
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18:06 < andytoshi> oh, IIRC the reason for H in the saberhagen scheme was something to do with monero's address handshaking. you couldn't use the identity fn as a hash for this reason. but can you use a second nums generator? i don't know..
18:08 < andytoshi> yeah, sorry p17 of the saberhagen whitepaper shows why my idea doesn't work, it interacts badly with the one-time tx keys
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 15 00:00:26 2016