--- Log opened Thu Sep 01 00:00:14 2016
--- Day changed Thu Sep 01 2016
00:00  * nsh wonders about attacks on RIPEMD-160
00:01 < nsh> good enough for GPG i guess
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00:10 <@gmaxwell> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1121#comment-52677 random OT thing, that I think sometimes explains some communications challenges explaining Bitcoin tech to people without as strong of a sciences background.
00:11 < midnightmagic> I really like that guy's blog.
00:12 < nsh> scott is awesome :)
00:14  * nsh disagrees with all of the examples where this person purports to have learned something :)
00:14 < midnightmagic> lol
00:17 < nsh> you can make similarly 'lightning' compelling arguments in less precise contexts as long as there's a decision procedure. law has endless examples that get distilled into named points of discursive reference
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00:17 < nsh> but computation makes proof pretty optimally compelling. an functioning exploit is the scientific process perfected
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00:24 <@gmaxwell> yes, he's wrong about the decisive turns happening in other fields-- they do (law would be a good example)-- but they're not so common in everyday social discourse.
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00:28  * nsh nods
00:28 < waxwing> nsh: i really liked the paper, they really went to the trouble of explaining it in detail. also there is code and it has been used in a test run. i'd be interested in hearing expert opinion about the puzzle-promise and puzzle-solver fair exchange stuff. it makes sense to my eyes, but there's a lot going on there.
00:29 < nsh> aye, it reads well to my wandbearer's eyes
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00:34 < waxwing> oh just scanned up you already mentioned potential gotchas.
00:39 < FNinTak> kanzure: for multi-Ghz part of spectrum, small fractal/ folded antennas are enough for short ranges
00:40 < FNinTak> Should be doable as relatively non-invasive implants or possibly self-unfolding injectables
00:40 < FNinTak> though effective distance would be limited by directionality + broadcast power if the transceiver is also embedded vs. external
00:42 < nsh> -> ##hplusroadmap
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02:29 < nsh> has anyone thought hard about how a public ledger might allow tor to dispense with [relatively] centralised Directory Authorities?
02:30 < nsh> petertodd tweeted about DAs in the context of bitcoin in july
02:31 < nsh> (you can track node/relay operation through transactions decentrally and still have pretty good metrics and anti-gaming policies)
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02:33 < nsh> .title https://blog.maidsafe.net/2016/05/27/structuring-networks-with-xor/
02:33 < yoleaux> Structuring Networks with XOR | MaidSafe
02:35 < nsh> this kinda reminds me of some interesting observations that Knuth in a talk or two
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02:42 <@gmaxwell> not having clicked the link, I wonder if they've heard about wagners' algorithim, and will they have a very bad day when an attacker teaches them about it?
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02:44 < nsh> there's two that might be relevant. Wagner-Fischer algo for edit distance and Stoer-Wagner on minimal cuts of undirected graphs
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02:47 < nsh> there are problems with tor's algo for positioning hidden service mappings in the DHT ( http://donncha.is/2013/05/trawling-tor-hidden-services/ )
02:48 < nsh> so this XOR-network thing is basically Kademlia DHTs i think
02:49 < nsh> i think you and cjd were thinking around the problem at some point
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02:51 <@gmaxwell> CJD's work is the only DHT work that I've seen which has any real attack resistance.
02:53  * nsh nods
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02:53 <@gmaxwell> well okay, no, not the only, freenet's "darknet" connections are also attack resistant under similar assumptions to cjd's work.
02:53 < nsh> hmm
02:53 <@gmaxwell> but like, no one uses darknet freenet connections.
02:54 < nsh> aye
02:54 <@gmaxwell> in any of these systems you just generally grind your locations to surround the hash space you're targeting with your sybils.
02:55 <@gmaxwell> freenet darknet and cjddns inhibit your ability to do that by constraing to you operating with friendly adjcencies.
02:55 <@gmaxwell> so you can only really sybil attack people dumb enough to connect to all your identities.
02:55 <@gmaxwell> (at least, assuming they work as expected)
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02:57 <@gmaxwell> I think tor has long since solved that problem in their latest designs. In the latest and not yet deployed designs, Hs' physical addresses change periodically, only known to people who know the URLs, and there is some random coin toss by directory authorities once a day to randomize the mapping.
02:57 <@gmaxwell> So even if you know a tor HS address in HSNG, you can't predict more than a day ahead where its location will be without compromising the directory authorities.
02:57 < nsh> hmm
02:57 < nsh> that's pretty neat
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03:40 < nsh> .wik Binary decision diagram
03:40 < yoleaux> "In computer science, a binary decision diagram (BDD) or branching program is a data structure that is used to represent a Boolean function. On a more abstract level, BDDs can be considered as a compressed representation of sets or relations." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_decision_diagram
03:41 < nsh> (Knuth explains how to apply elementary BDD technology so that the probability of such events (and many others) can be computed in polynomial time. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axUgEAgrSB8 )
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12:45 < so> tonika was also an early approach that considered the history of graph formation in the sybil defense, but newcomers with few or no friends in the network don't have much to go on
12:46 < so> graph 'conductance'
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13:02 < so> kanzure: http://arxiv.org/abs/1504.01185
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13:24 <@gmaxwell> andytoshi: [curves] DLP to Linear Multivariable Chinese Remainder? < you might want to reply to that?
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14:17 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: sure, lemme sync my email..
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14:41 < andytoshi> https://moderncrypto.org/mail-archive/curves/2016/000739.html
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15:07 < nsh> the world sleep easy again tonight :)
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15:10 < nsh> (i would love to think you wouldn't publish a mathematical paper making strong cryptographic claims unless you got it to work with more than the one example you started with)
15:10 < so> peers accepted
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