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08:32 < dgenr8> mimblewimble. how do miners get the transactions, and what keeps them from keeping a record of them?
08:37 < bsm117532> If miners receive pre-aggregated transactions, they could certainly record them.  But service providers could do the aggregation themselves before sending to miners, for instance.
08:37 < sipa> every node in the network can aggregate transaction before relay
08:39 < bsm117532> But if different miners aggregate different subsets of transactions, it will look like a double-spend to a miner...
08:40 < bsm117532> But if different *relay*nodes* ...^^^
08:43 < kanzure> "what keeps them from keeping a record of them?" i don't think that was ever claimed
08:43 < kanzure> anyone who has an individual transaction can continue to keep the transaction at their own leisure
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08:49 < sipa> kanzure: absolutely
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08:59 < dgenr8> my node is definitely keeping any txes it sees. those could be worth good money to somebody.
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09:25 < amiller> there's a difference between miners keeping a record of them and the parties to the transaction keeping a record of them
09:25 < amiller> i haven't seen a clear explanation of how a whole mimblewimble system would work
09:25 < amiller> like, are still supposed to broadcast transactions to a network? or like, pick one miner you trust to include them
09:26 <@gmaxwell> it's the same things as was discussed with owas.
09:26 <@gmaxwell> You can have nodes that collect and batch transactions which are not miners.
09:27 < sipa> and you can do traditional coinjoin too (and much easier)
09:27 <@gmaxwell> You can also have coinjoin style introductions. Where a bunch of users are introduced to each other and collaborate to build some aggregate, drop the aggrete off at their favorite agg server... which further aggregates it.. then hands it to miners.
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10:04 < kanzure> and yes you can still broadcast transactions to a network
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10:32 < fluffypony> is Interledger just Ripple with a different name?
10:32 < fluffypony> someone sent me the whitepaper today.
10:39 < pigeons> it is a proposed w3 standard by ripple labs employees that is loosely based on jtimon and ryan fugger's 2 phase commit ripplepay proposal from before ripple labs was a thing
10:40 < pigeons> that was how it was originally sold, each day more complexity gets added.
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10:40 < fluffypony> lol
10:41 < pigeons> so yeah intended to allow cross-ledger payments via "connectors" if the ledgers support certain features like cryptographic escrow
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10:41 < pigeons> one recent criticism is their insistence on using ASN1 to encode the "crypto conditions"
10:42 < pigeons> i follow the development on github and gitter and mailing lists and w3c irc, and i think the deelopment process is kind of different from how i would consider bitcoin to be "open"
10:42 < pigeons> its more like they are doing it out in the open, but they know what they want and are gonna do it
10:43 < sipa> ASN1 aaaargh
10:43 < pigeons> yeah i told them my concerns and they said, well we are used OER so its not DER or BER type problems
10:45 < pigeons> already the strings before you encode them are part base 16 part base 64, part this, before you even get to asn.1 ambiguitieies
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10:48 < pigeons> i still think its a cool idea, but i think sommeone will implement a credit layer, a cross-chain atomic swap layer, etc. over lightning channels to do similar things
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11:09 < jtimon> ripple distributed protocol v0.6 was compatible with bitcoin http://archive.ripple-project.org/Protocol/BlockChainCommitMethod http://archive.ripple-project.org/Protocol/AtomicTradesOfRippleIOUsForChainCoins
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11:24 < maaku> pigeons "someone" ;)
11:26 < so> asn1 and x509 should be banned
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12:25 < bsm117532> I feel like asn1 and x509 are ways to pass the buck for ownership of crypto problems...
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12:35 < so> or they're just a scam
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12:35 < fluffypony> holy cow I didn't know so was an actual person that spoke
12:35 < fluffypony> so: I thought you only existed in my IRC client's highlights
12:36 < so> imagine my surprise at a typing pony
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12:37  * fluffypony giggles
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12:39 < runeks> If an input/output pair is signed using SINGLE|ANYONECANPAY, can it be moved around, to a different input/output position, as long as the input and its corresponding output are at the same indices? Or is this not possible?
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12:53 < sipa> runeks: not pre segwit, i believe
12:53 < sipa> post segwit, yes
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13:04 < maaku> Why not pre segwit?
13:05 < maaku> This is how lighthouse works iirc.
13:05 <@gmaxwell> it's not moved around, it's just append only.
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13:08 < andytoshi> has anyone done work on simple compact serialization for merkle trees that are created all at once but may be pruned? (this is sorta a programming question, sorry)
13:10 < kanzure> there was probably some serialization stuff in the proofchain or merkle mountain range stuff repository?
13:11 < andytoshi> ok i'll see what maaku and petertodd have done in this area
13:14 < so> remember thex?
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13:19 < sipa> maaku: oh, i may be talking about a different combination of flags
13:20 < sipa> maybe single without anyonecanpay
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13:30 < so> http://www.dcc.uchile.cl/~gnavarro/ps/tcs16.2.pdf
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13:36 < andytoshi> looks like MMRs as described at https://github.com/opentimestamps/opentimestamps-server/blob/master/doc/merkle-mountain-range.md is exactly what i need, thanks petertodd
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14:55 < petertodd> andytoshi: read this implementation too: https://github.com/proofchains/python-proofmarshal/blob/master/proofmarshal/mmr.py <- there's some details that opentimestamps doesn't need, that you do need to use MMR's properly in many applications
14:57 < petertodd> andytoshi: depends on what exact proofs you need to extract from the tree - MMR's are mainly for when you _don't_ want to create the tree all at once, but instead want to be able to create it incrementally - in particular, they can add items to the end of a pruned tree with minimal data
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14:59 < andytoshi> petertodd: so what i want is a merkle structure for mimblewimble where initially it's created all at once (in a full block) but later users will see pruned version of this. i don't care about insertion, i don't care about deletion, i don't care about modification. what i want is a pruned tree can be encoded as compactly and comprehensibly as possible
15:00 < andytoshi> honestly the serialization is my only requirement here (then i don't want anything too crazy cuz it's consensus code and it ought to be understandable)
15:00 < petertodd> andytoshi: do you care about being able to prove the index of an item?
15:00 < andytoshi> petertodd: no
15:00 < petertodd> andytoshi: like, if you have the tip of the tree, do you care if it's easy to prove that index #123 is item <foo>?
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15:01 < petertodd> andytoshi: because if not, the MMR w/o tree sums is probably fine for your application, and more compact - the sums that proofmarshal adds are there to make it easy to prove indexes
15:02 < andytoshi> nope, i don't think i care about proofs at all (except that you can think of them a sepceial case of a pruned tree where only one item is left)
15:02 < andytoshi> "the sums" you mean the depth counts?
15:03 < petertodd> andytoshi: so, in proofmarshal's implementation, each node in the tree commits to the sum of all leaves under that node, which makes it trivial to - starting at the tip of the tree - find a particular index
15:03 < andytoshi> oh i see, yeah, i can avoid that
15:04 < petertodd> andytoshi: how to do that without commiting to the sums isn't obvious - easier to just use a sparse perfect binary tree of sufficiently big size
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15:04 < andytoshi> cool. i will remember that.
15:04 < petertodd> np
15:11 < dgenr8> "
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15:28 < dgenr8> kanzure: the obvious concern with *not* broadcasting is that a few may have all the information, as in todays financial system
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