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#bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- Yogh [~Yogh@f36186.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:07 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:11 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 < bsm1175321> synero claims to have sharding and proof of stake. That's two easter bunnies in one project. Two too many. 12:14 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about sharding, and I know of no project that has anything remotely close to a workable idea. 12:15 < fluffypony> Sharing seems like a very hard goal to securely satisfy 12:15 < bsm1175321> If you want to know what I think of PoS: https://blog.sldx.com/whats-wrong-with-proof-of-stake-77d4f370be15 12:15 * bsm1175321 sells fluffypony a 'd' 12:16 < fluffypony> A d? 12:16 * bsm1175321 waits 12:16 < fluffypony> Oh 12:16 < fluffypony> lol 12:16 < bsm1175321> Hahaaa 12:17 < fluffypony> Sharing is caring after all 12:18 < bsm1175321> I'm going to wrap up my braiding project for Scaling Bitcoin in Milan, but after that I'm devoting my attention to sharding. It's the next major scaling obstacle. 12:31 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@h-67-100-84-176.lsan.ca.globalcapacity.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:37 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:45 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:48 -!- lvns [~lvns@pool-100-38-50-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49 -!- lvns [~lvns@pool-100-38-50-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 13:02 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:16 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 13:31 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: irc] 13:32 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:39 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:47 -!- Mazz_ [~mazznilla@unaffiliated/mazznilla] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02 < kanzure> http://blog.paralleluniverse.co/2016/07/23/correctness-and-complexity/ 14:13 -!- kyletorpey [~kyle@pool-173-53-94-96.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:34 < katu> i still feel uneasy about goedel and proof by exhaustion. once you exhaustively prove program is, in fact, correct, i'm not sure how the axiomatic self-referentiality comes into play. 14:34 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 14:35 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@109.128.247.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:36 -!- mdavid613 [~Adium@cpe-172-251-161-231.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07 < Taek> I hold the belief that sharding is about as viable as proof-of-stake 15:07 < Taek> looked at it for a while around a year or so ago, and I couldn't convince myself that there's a way to trust something if you don't have all the data 15:07 < Taek> perhaps with snarks 15:09 < Taek> the problem is that with 100,000,000,000,000 transactions, all it takes is a single invalid transaction that you missed to corrupt everything 15:19 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:19 -!- cjd [~user@2c0f:f930:2:12::] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:20 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22 -!- mariorz [sid490@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-brrxujhvwvyiodpk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:22 -!- Alopex 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has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:11 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:15 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:16 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 16:18 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:28 < Taek> If Coinbase were to execute a mammoth reorg (e.g. 25,000) blocks, how many coins could they recover that they've spent? 16:28 < Taek> and, would that amount be enough cover the cost of the mammoth reorg (ignoring the fact that any mammoth reorg drives the price down immensley) 16:29 < katu> selloff panic can be insured against, just short even higher amount than you invest in the reorg 16:29 < smooth> There are a LOT more than 12.5 BTC moved per block 16:29 < katu> Taek: however the reorg is no singular event. eventually you run out of capital to feed the 51% 16:29 < katu> then what? 16:30 < smooth> if you chain is longer at that point, then there is a good chance everyone continues to mine it 16:30 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:30 < katu> will they? current centralizing mining is ugly, but has some nice perks too 16:30 < smooth> "good chance" 16:31 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:32 < katu> hmm, i think what taek means is the logistic issues, how to re-inject all the rolled back transactions to non-malicious branch? 16:32 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:32 < Taek> I'm pretty confident that if we ever saw a reorg over some large threshold (perhaps 2000 blocks, but perhaps it'd take all the way up to 10,000 blocks) there'd be a massive reaction from the dev+commerce+mining community where everyone got together and hardforked back to the previous chain 16:32 < katu> unless something changed, bitcoin doesnt actually do that? 16:33 < Taek> getting a hardfork would require support from everyone, but with an event that big, I think you'd have it 16:33 < smooth> popcorn futures, not shorting, would be the play 16:33 < katu> smooth: thats for sure :) 16:36 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:44 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:51 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:52 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07 < so> how does sharding differ from atomic cross chain swaps? 17:08 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09 < so> sidechain ~ shardchain 17:10 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/sharding-the-blockchain/ 17:10 < kanzure> https://github.com/vbuterin/scalability_paper/blob/master/scalability.pdf 17:10 < kanzure> http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin/ 17:10 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:25 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:27 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:29 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 17:30 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:33 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:40 -!- pero [~perooo@unaffiliated/pero] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44 -!- pero [~pero@unaffiliated/pero] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:48 < so> for example, ethereum is a two-shard system right now 17:48 -!- Transisto2 [~Trans@modemcable017.144-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:49 -!- Transisto2 [~Trans@179.48.248.128] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:01 < bsm1175321> I can't understand WTF the word salad by Vlad is about. 18:02 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:03 < so> hear hear 18:03 -!- gsdgdfs [~Trans@modemcable017.144-178-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04 -!- Transisto2 [~Trans@179.48.248.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:15 < so> bob, is the advantage of your impromptu sharding proposal that some nodes wouldn't need to store the entire chain? 18:16 < so> or maybe the idea is that you'd propose simultaneously mining all partitions for N coinbases per block? 18:21 < so> maybe there's a safe way to merge-mine with the right shard ratio 18:24 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:45 < amiller> what kind of security guarantees do you preserve, when nodes don't store the entire chain 18:45 < amiller> do you still try to guarantee that all the chains are kept available and consistent 18:46 < so> I'm assuming his impromptu proposal would mean they SPV and verify sometimes 18:46 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wivxvgzxmatfdgvv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:49 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 18:49 < katu> bsm1175321: peter todd to the rescue, https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011817.html 18:49 < katu> kanzure: http://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin is dead 18:49 < kanzure> blame bsm1175321 18:50 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@2604:5500:17:2ea:8419:4777:d81c:45e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:50 < katu> damn that was fast 18:50 < katu> well, whoever you are, it's still in google cache 18:53 < kanzure> speed force, and such. 19:09 < bsm1175321> so: That's the definition of sharding, not having to retain the entire UTXO set. 19:10 < so> isn't that also true of another chain? 19:10 < so> or even a sidechain? 19:10 < bsm1175321> We moved our blog to Medium, the ELI5 of blogs: https://blog.sldx.com/three-challenges-for-scaling-bitcoin-e77bd5feebf5 19:11 < bsm1175321> Medium insists on appending bullshit at the end of your URLs and preventing you from using most modern elements in your blog. (like SVG) 19:11 < bsm1175321> so: I'm not sure what you mean... 19:12 < so> what can you accomplish with sharding that isn't accomplished with cross chain swaps? 19:13 < bsm1175321> Cross chain swaps are trading one asset for another -- the price floats. Sharding is a division of labor, there's no "price" associated with a "shard". 19:15 < so> if the throughput is divided then some shards are weaker than others? why should they be equally valuable? 19:16 < cjd> you could use a pegged price to make the sidechain effectively behave as a shard... 19:16 < cjd> but the pegging stuff does not sound like it will work WRT incentives 19:16 < cjd> basically without issuing a shitcoin, there is no incentive to mine - even a sidechain 19:17 < so> for instance in ether the shard discussions seem to be related to the observation that they're running the same instructions on all machines, so maybe they could run a verification on a fraction as long as one verifier is honest 19:17 < cjd> or 1 machine 19:18 < cjd> but that's basically PoS in a nutshell since the creators of a PoS currency will just keep most of the coin anyway so they can run it 19:19 < so> in the bitcoin context a similar set of observations lead to related chains or attempts to use the hash throughput more efficiently 19:21 < cjd> there is a highly annoying realization that you can't proove against double-spends without paying an enormous amount on validation, and any validation which can be skipped will be 19:22 < cjd> sidechains which are hard-pegged to BTC will not be merge-mined unless they somehow pay off the miners... This is assuming miners are selfish agents, which has been untrue in the past 19:36 < bsm1175321> shards wouldn't be equally "valuable" -- the idea is that if you're willing to contribute 1GB of disk space to the UTXO set, in a bitcoind node, you should be able to store and validate the corresponding fraction. 19:37 < bsm1175321> It's a pure CS problem, not an economic problem. How to incentize the shard holders is relevant as well. 19:37 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ievylziaftuzsbzr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:37 < so> shard is then SPV++? 19:38 < so> there are many ways to save space, though 19:38 < bsm1175321> In a way, yes. The hard part is proving to shard holders that the *rest* of the UTXO space is consistent/valid. 19:39 < Taek> so: with sharding, ideally you can receive a payment from any shard and still know with absolute certainty that the payment is valid 19:39 < Taek> but you don't have to validate every shard yourself, only a few of them 19:39 < Taek> or maybe even none of them 19:40 < Taek> maybe you validate some other piece of data that somehow allows you to believe that none of the shards have been compromised 19:40 < so> look for andrew's question above 19:41 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:41 < Taek> Consistency is definintely a requirement 19:41 < Taek> I hadn't really though about sacrificing availability to achieve sharding 19:42 < Taek> oh, though eventually availability is definitely also a requirement 19:42 < Taek> e.g. you can have temporary unavailability, but a permanently unavailable system is useless as a currency / store-of-value 19:52 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:12 < Taek> There was a paper (or maybe just a blog post?) recently that pointed out the fact that if your 6 confirmations take a long time, security is actually lower than if they take a short amount of time 20:12 < Taek> because if they take a while, your theoretical attacker has more time to mine 6 competing confirmations 20:13 < Taek> I would be grateful if someone could link me to that 20:19 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@dyn-ant666999.hawo.ipv6.uni-erlangen.de] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Verlassend"] 20:20 < so> any slowdown suggests a drop in hashrate => less security 20:23 < Taek> it's reasonable that the slowdown also happens just due to randomness, in this case security is also still reduced 20:23 -!- bliljerk101 [~bliljerk1@12.69.88.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:29 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has 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