--- Log opened Mon Sep 12 00:00:52 2016 00:11 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 00:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- flower [~user@96.30.80.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14 -!- flower [~user@96.30.80.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 00:20 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@172.56.30.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@82.201.93.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE394BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:58 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.179] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@ip-64-134-226-96.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:11 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- rhett [~rhett@c-73-223-86-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:15 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:17 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:140:1407::2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18 -!- blkdb [~blkdb@2a01:4f8:140:1407::2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:20 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@172.56.31.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@ip-64-134-226-96.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:45 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:55 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:57 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:00 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@172.56.31.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:33 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:45 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:51 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-174-97-254-80.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:58 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@172.56.31.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@maus.hawo.stw.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE394BE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:39 -!- e0_ [~e0@c-66-30-116-211.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:00 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@172.56.31.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:25 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@maus.hawo.stw.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 04:37 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:40 < jcorgan> https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/871.pdf 04:40 < jcorgan> Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies. A Rational Framework for Truly Decentralised Fast Transactions 04:41 < jcorgan> only recently published but i wonder if there has been any discussion here or elsewhere on it 04:41 -!- Mazz_ [~mazznilla@unaffiliated/mazznilla] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:43 < jcorgan> it's basic concept is to apply cumulative PoW to chains of transactions, and to separate the PoW DAG from the currency transaction DAG 04:43 < cjd> just read the abstract but my first reaction: 1. chained transactions were thought of before blocks but blocks were implemented because of valid reasons 2. those names I don't recognize from the bitcoin world so I'm concerned that possibly they're academics without a lot of knowledge about this specific technology 04:44 < jcorgan> sure, i get that 04:44 < jcorgan> but the paper seems rather well written inspite of that 04:45 * nsh frowns 04:46 < cjd> we've seen some really silly papers before -- specifically I recall one from Microsoft which "described a problem that doesn't exist and then solved it poorly" 04:47 < jcorgan> my first takeaway is that it describes a steady state operation but not how a node would start from zero and get to that point 04:48 < jcorgan> i need to re-read it in detail, but, time 04:50 < cjd> the 2 super annoying problems in my mind are: #1 blockchains must be slow because it takes time before you are sure that the chain can't be rolled back, this is basically true of anything with proof of work because you have to wait for the work to happen. 04:51 < cjd> #2 the cost of moving small amounts of money may be limited but the cost of moving enormous bank-size amounts of money (and being sure that it is not being double-spent) is enormous 04:52 < cjd> say you're moving 10 trillion dollars, it's actually worth it to try to 51% attack bitcoin for that kind of money 04:52 < nsh> 2. Works on an open model, empowering individuals. 04:52 * nsh is sold 04:52 < nsh> this is a terrible proposal. i'd love to see it implemented 04:52 < nsh> i'm glad for a system to fail when one signature is able to move 10 trillion dollars 04:52 < cjd> I think SWIFT does this pretty much daily 04:53 < cjd> and Bitcoin is ar superior to SWIFT because you don't need friends of friends who have big credit lines with one another in order to transfer money 04:53 < nsh> i don't think replicating terribly insecure centralised transfers is the best ambition 04:53 < jcorgan> ok, well, hate to post PDFs and run, but first day of grcon16 awaits 04:53 < nsh> enjoy! 04:54 < cjd> if you want to wire a huge amount of money, there are actually liquidity problems at the forex level 04:54 < nsh> there should be 04:55 < nsh> there are flow-theoretical realities that we should recognise and not attempt to obviate 04:55 -!- jcorgan [~jcorgan@unaffiliated/jcorgan] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 04:55 < cjd> FEDWIRE is able to move massive amounts of money because it is like bitcoin in that the Federal Reserve simply credits the difference to the appropriate account 04:55 < nsh> (else the turbulent effects are merely externalised) 04:56 < cjd> s/massive/arbitrary/ 04:57 < cjd> SWIFT is merely a messaging system, you need to have banks with big enough credit relations that they can pick a route where there is enough liquidity to execute your transfer, similar to lightning network 04:57 < cjd> it's fast but it's a pain 05:04 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:35 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:42 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.25] has quit [Client Quit] 05:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:56 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[~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 14:21 -!- Davasny_ [~quassel@78-11-193-195.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25 -!- r0ach [~r0ach@107-217-214-192.lightspeed.jcvlfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 14:37 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:50 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:53 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05 < kanzure> "Smarter signatures: Experiments in verifications" https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/ID2020DesignWorkshop/blob/master/final-documents/smarter-signatures.pdf 15:54 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:56 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2001:0:9d38:6ab8:846:3099:a237:51b5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- nonaTure 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[~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Quit: quit] 16:53 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:56 < neha> FNinTak: Spacemint was invented by Sunoo Park, who is a "she" not a "he" 17:06 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-octcwqzbgtaykkom] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:19 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:26 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkgnffsjpulddruu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:26 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:31 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:32 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:33 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@109.128.247.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:36 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@46-127-71-221.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:40 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:43 -!- Samdney [~Samdney@dyn-ant666999.hawo.ipv6.uni-erlangen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:49 < luke-jr> it occurs to me that we'd have essentially MAST already if we had gone with OP_EVAL.. 17:59 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00 -!- sleepsource [~sleepsour@179.43.174.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:02 -!- sleepsource [~sleepsour@179.43.174.98] has quit [Client Quit] 18:03 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:06 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:11 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.MIT.EDU] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:28 -!- testak [126f19ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.18.111.25.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:35 -!- testak [126f19ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.18.111.25.202] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:49 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58 < amiller> hi neha 19:07 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tikcdjhdukaomreo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:09 -!- renling [renling@dhcp-18-189-40-137.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:18 < FNinTak> neha: was referencing the author of the PoSpace paper I posted earlier, not the SpaceMint author 19:23 -!- netzin [~netsin@unaffiliated/jiggalator] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:25 -!- Z3r0 [Z3r0@c-75-74-81-94.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:38 < katu> FNinTak: NaS (nothing at stake) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf 19:40 < katu> with PoSpace it gets worse, because you dont need to hoard to long range attack the chain, all you need is to be 51% miner at any time to start long range attack until you catch up to the tip. 19:42 < FNinTak> hoard? No ownership of currency required for a long range attack 19:44 < FNinTak> I think you're referencing the problem gmaxwell brought up earlier, which is that b/c "hashrate" is not directly dependent on energy usage attacks are cheaper and development of specialized hardware more plausible 19:44 < katu> yea, i probably mislabel long range here. anyhow, the point is that with PoS youre at least capped by capital 19:44 < katu> but with pospace youre not 19:44 < katu> yes 19:44 < katu> thats all category of NaS 19:44 < katu> costless simulation etc 19:45 < FNinTak> Capped wrt. how long this attack could be? there is some non-trivial energy cost, based on energy consumption of memory/storage medium 19:45 < FNinTak> though it is much lower than that of hashing, it is non-zero 19:46 < katu> no, all pospaces have "fast proof", all you need is to be beefy miner *for a while* 19:46 < katu> to outpace chain growth including history to the past youre starting at 19:48 < katu> anyhow, that can be fixed by getting PoW oracle, which can possibly be external, though not really sure about that yet 20:07 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:24 < FNinTak> I don't see how that doesn't also apply to Bitcoin...yes mining is cheaper wrt. energy and this lowers the cost of attack, assuming you already have state-of-the-art hardware 20:27 < katu> FNinTak: you can't grind in bitcoin. in bitcoin it takes a while to get a block. 20:27 < katu> pospace and pos is instant. 20:27 < katu> this is why you need oracle 20:27 < katu> anyhow, read the nas paper 20:29 < katu> (in pospace not really "instant" - youre capped by your disk bw, but is definitely not something you want to put bets on) 20:39 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:58 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkgnffsjpulddruu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:09 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:21 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:24 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@155.94.209.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:25 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2607:ff48:aa81:800::a15f:1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:27 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@dhcp-18-111-25-202.dyn.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@mn-71-51-159-139.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:56 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@18.172.8.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:58 -!- FNinTak [~jonhbit@18.172.8.72] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11 -!- netzin [~netsin@unaffiliated/jiggalator] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:32 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:34 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:35 -!- renling [renling@dhcp-18-189-40-137.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:43 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:55 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xeahiqvbvdzvbesq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:09 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osmybmhamwjspskd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:15 -!- rhett [~rhett@c-73-223-86-218.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:32 -!- jonasschnelli [~jonasschn@unaffiliated/jonasschnelli] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:42 -!- netzin [~netsin@unaffiliated/jiggalator] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:44 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:44 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] --- Log closed Tue Sep 13 00:00:53 2016