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#bitcoin-wizards 06:31 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:34 -!- byteflame [~byteflame@70-89-65-45-little-rock-ar.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:38 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 06:39 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:58 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:00 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@185pc230.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:08 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@77pc231.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:13 < bsm117532> https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/889.pdf "A Provably Secure Proof-of-Stake Blockchain Protocol" 07:13 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@185pc230.sshunet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:15 -!- AaronvanW__ [~ewout@185pc230.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:18 -!- AaronvanW_ [~ewout@77pc231.sshunet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:26 < katu> bsm117532: i think this has been proposed before. nothing really stops one to rig the coin flips. 07:26 < katu> they do a convenient cop out, With foresight, 07:26 < katu> maintaining the implication from common prefix to persistence, we will need the additional assumption that 07:26 < katu> no honest stakeholder gets offline for more than k rounds, where k is a parameter. 07:26 < katu> turning their offline consensus into online one. 07:26 < katu> there are simpler online consensus protocols than this. 07:30 < bsm117532> Yes, entropy is easy if the set of participants is fixed, using hash & reveal a la Bitshares. So k tells the attacker how to attack. :-( 07:39 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:40 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:43 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:43 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@unaffiliated/sdaftuar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:01 -!- AaronvanW__ is now known as AaronvanW 08:06 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 08:06 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:19 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:21 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:31 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@212.77.61.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@212.77.61.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:42 < amiller> more provably secure proof of stake https://eprint.iacr.org/2016/889.pdf 08:45 -!- Starduster [~SD@5ED11658.cm-7-2a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 < amiller> er yeah im late lol 08:45 -!- Starduster [~SD@5ED11658.cm-7-2a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 08:45 -!- Starduster [~SD@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:51 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@212.77.61.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00 -!- qpm [~qpm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic/bot/qpm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:07 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- skang404 [~skang404@27.6.192.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:21 < petertodd> amiller: one of these days I should write up a proof-of-stake proposal, and at the top make it 110% clear what assumptions I need to make it work :) 09:23 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:26 -!- skang404 [~skang404@27.6.192.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:28 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:36 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@212.77.61.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:37 -!- neha [~narula@tbilisi.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:37 < vega4> am I the only one who just after reading the title provably secure *PoS* wants to smash his head onto a wall? 09:39 -!- neha [~narula@tbilisi.csail.mit.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 < vega4> Bitcoin is centralized. there are two mining pool who alone would be able to perform 51% attack, and people still want to prove that PoS is safe, seems like every nitch of people will find their God. 09:42 < katu> petertodd: i think you once promised to write formal proof that PoS can work with the only assumption being one has a random oracle for timestamps (ie track bitcoin chain for those) 09:43 < vega4> with one random oracle we can setup a database, sinle server and forget about the consensus alltogether 09:44 < katu> no. 09:44 < katu> vega4: the timestamp server provided by bitcoin is distributed / decentralized. 09:45 < katu> and there is no other known (to me) way to replicate property of bitcoin NUMS 09:46 < vega4> ok then, I thought about a time stamp server, if we think about entity such as 'distributed timestamp' server the term does not hold to what I have in mind when thinking about 'time stamp server' 09:46 < katu> time stamp server is just generic term, both centralized and decentralized 09:47 < vega4> what do you mean by a time stamp server in the context of BTC then 09:47 < katu> both are stimm timestamp servers. anyhow, the point is to prove whether it can be used outside of bitcoin, or not. 09:48 < vega4> as far as I'm concerned there is no notion of time in btc. only the order of blocks. and if you consider a TSS as disteibuted you need to trust the single entities, creating sort of a loop bla bla bla 09:48 < katu> yes there is 09:49 < katu> time is only arrow of time. future and past. 09:49 < katu> you *can* tell whether hash happened before or after other hash from timestamp server. 09:49 < vega4> true that is 09:50 < katu> (and this hash is also stamped with actual time, but doesnt really need to be for it to be timestamp) 09:50 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.47.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:51 < vega4> "only assumption being one has a random oracle for timestamps"; sorry I come from crypto / math field. distibuted random oracle seems too abstract 09:51 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 < katu> yea, misleading term on my parn. lets call it 'NUMS oracle' 09:51 < katu> *part 09:57 -!- kekroment [~kekroment@c-73-14-144-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- skang404 [~skang404@27.6.192.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 < vega4> I was thinking yesterday.. suppose World War 3 suddenly broke out. I was thinking like.. the price of BTC would have really skyrocketed.and then I thought about the security of a blockchain. suppose there would be a lot of cheaters by then. what I like about the proof-of-work is that no matter what happens. if one wanted to alter the history of transactions he would need to provide all of the proofs.imagine a situation i 10:02 < vega4> each of them hold a HDD with a blockchain. one is poorely PoS and the other HDD is PoW. which one would you trust your items. you've got no internet connection at a given moment and the last block is from like 10 minuts ago. 10:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@78-11-247-26.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:09 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:10 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@184.68.47.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:11 < katu> vega4: whatever system can work with large latencies wins 10:12 < katu> in case of total infrastructure collapse, real internet will be very low bandwidth and way too expensive. most of networking will be through high latency (but high capacity too) sneakernet 10:12 < vega4> DTNs/MANETS are my active field :P 10:12 < katu> nice 10:13 < katu> which reminds me, are there some serious sources about propagation data? 10:13 < vega4> actually, these fiedls got me into cryptocurencies recently 10:13 < katu> one needs to do correct models, as its now too difficult to testnet in real world. 10:14 < vega4> what do you mean by propagation data? 10:14 < katu> all i have is ballparks about latencies, propagations, community graphs. these are mostly inferred from social networks, which is grossly misleading 10:14 < katu> vega4: capacity and latency of a sneakernet in relation to distance 10:15 < vega4> I guess that would depend on the actuall routing protocol 10:15 < vega4> and medium characteristics 10:15 < katu> routing is easy, this is about people movement. 10:15 < katu> routing is pay-per-flood basically 10:15 < vega4> ah so you mean the simplest viral dissemination 10:16 < vega4> so what we are looking at is the propagation data for viral dissemination in case of movement model of people behavior. there was a paper on that 10:16 < katu> its the only sensible way. you can route according to past contact, but that is inherently higher latency 10:17 -!- skang404 [~skang404@27.6.192.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:17 < katu> vega4: neat. yeah, i think cdc studies generally seem like way to go 10:17 < katu> but again, cell network radious work over larger distances than flu transmission 10:17 < katu> *radios 10:18 < vega4> actually, if you ask me... I wouldn't rely on the history of contatacts... there are a lot of different schools for routing in MANETs/DTNs same use history of node contatacts, others form into local zones and introduce border gateways 10:18 < vega4> *some 10:18 < katu> yea, all meshnet mostly deals with lan 10:19 < vega4> locayt.com 10:19 < katu> which is valid concern, for that lan to be high performant 10:19 < vega4> one of the projects I've been working on 10:19 < katu> you cant flood locally 10:19 < vega4> put on halt 10:19 < katu> vega4: for entertainment, social routing seem like natural fit to disseminate content. 10:20 < vega4> I'll publish a paper soon; it will connect the world of cryptocurrencies and pocket-switched networking;) 10:20 < vega4> that is why I'm here recently 10:20 < katu> (ie not location based, but social network based regardless of distance - this operates on assumption that your tastes always matches some of your friends) 10:20 -!- [\\\] is now known as tripleslash 10:20 < vega4> need to develope a solutons which would handle lots of transaction is short time; BTC does 1-2/s 10:21 < vega4> comapred to 2k/s in case of VISA and mastercard 10:21 < katu> meh, the bandwidth discussions are sort of boring tbh 10:21 < vega4> yeah but the thing is 10:21 < katu> unless we're talking utxo compression / folding into some sort of tricky crypto structure 10:21 < vega4> one needs incentive to route your data 10:22 < vega4> and that's were things get interesting 10:22 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:22 < katu> regarding incentives, its quite similiar to internet p2p 10:23 < katu> tit for tat and its eigen halo can go pretty long way 10:23 < vega4> sure but imagine torrents where everyone earns BTC for sharing 10:23 < katu> it is possible to cheat, but cheating physically is quite a blocker 10:23 < vega4> or imagine cloud hosting where everyone could participate in cloud storage for BTC 10:23 < katu> yes, i've looked both into eigenspeed and postorage. 10:24 < katu> its doable, but scales poorly for mobile devices. 10:24 < katu> because sneakernets have additionaly latency problem 10:24 < katu> you need to reward speed of delivery 10:24 < katu> not just "routing" 10:24 < katu> vega4: so, if somebody travels back and forth between 2 hubs 10:24 < katu> hes rewarded for that, as hes essential for those hubs to be connected 10:25 < vega4> excatly; I think you will love to read my paper; I've spent long long recent months on this:P 10:25 < katu> rewarding local hub communication is useless, because theres plenty of links 10:26 < katu> vega4: i ended up with somewhat numerically unstable eigentrust, where opinion about high value nodes diffuses 10:26 < katu> and those high value nodes provide semi-proof in that they actually permit this consensus to form 10:26 < vega4> I gotta run, we will get back to this, if you would be willing to 10:38 < vega4> katu: I've just looked up EigenSpeed couldn't find postorage. compared to eigenspeed I'm not concerned with bandwidth assesment or hardware layer at all. I'm just concerned with rewarding intermediares for they work on a higher layer of abstraction. the one who delivers first wins. and I want to ensure intermediaries that the data originator has 'paid' for the service. 10:39 < vega4> there are also problems on how to prevent cheating adding fake intermediaries etc tec 10:39 < vega4> while keeping a very disruptive envionment in mind 10:39 < vega4> the name of the protocol is GRIDNET;d 10:40 < vega4> awaiting my publication 10:49 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:00 -!- kekroment [~kekroment@c-73-14-144-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:08 < katu> vega4: postorage is different from eigenspeed 11:08 < katu> postorage is provable consensus, eigen protocols are opinion diffusion and reconcilation 11:09 < katu> as gmaxwell said, eigen is an nice excercise in numerical instability :D 11:22 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined 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PSYCHIATRY IS A FRAUD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont forget! 18:04 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:3458:3bb8:a237:51b5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:06 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:3458:3bb8:a237:51b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:06 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lxvsqyxtivzarjmx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:08 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:11 < ANTIPSYCHIATRY> Psychiatry is a fraud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 18:13 -!- ANTIPSYCHIATRY [b920b33f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.32.179.63] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 18:19 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:39 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2001:0:9d38:6ab8:248d:564:a237:51b5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:3458:3bb8:a237:51b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:45 -!- Starduster [~SD@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2001:0:9d38:90d7:4b1:2a36:a237:51b5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:01 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2001:0:9d38:6ab8:248d:564:a237:51b5] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:08 -!- luke-jr 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