--- Log opened Tue Sep 20 00:00:59 2016
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00:56 < bsm1175321> I've been thinking a lot about the collision between tumblers and double-spends.  A double-spender could do a lot of harm, by causing his txn to be mixed with innocent non-double spenders.
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01:02 < bsm1175321> Basically, that a mixer participant can cheaply force a reorg of a bunch of transactions that have nothing to do with the double-spend.  So, users of remixers should probably take this into account when considering whether their transaction is "confirmed" -- the probability of a reorg is higher, when the payer is using a mixer.
01:08 < nsh> heh
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01:20 < Taek> that's a good point.
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01:43 < katu> bsm1175321: try to think about profit motive. what would double spender gain from this?
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01:44 < nsh> disruption of fixing is an end in itself to certain actors
01:45 < nsh> *mixing
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01:45 < katu> for starters, you dont have control how the mix tx propagates
01:45 < katu> as everyone broadcasts it
01:45 < katu> second, you can join the mix pool and simply don't reply to DoS
01:46 < katu> im assuming coinjoin type mixers
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01:51 < bsm1175321> My argument is that *any* double-spend by any other remixer participant turns your txn into a double-spend.
01:53 < nsh> contagion?
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01:53 < katu> bsm1175321: yes, the mix tx can definitely revert
01:53 < katu> but same can happen even without doublespend
01:53 < katu> i just dont see any point
01:53 < katu> *unless* somebody is so retarded to "penalize" doublespends
01:54 < katu> which is completely and utterly hopeless
01:54 < bsm1175321> Good point.  Well I've been thinking about braids/dags in which the double-spend can be detected/reverted without polluting everything else in the block.
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02:05 < nsh> 'Tezos is the first, and only blockchain implementation operating with decentralized governance.' -- https://tezos.com/
02:05 < nsh> (generally the cryptographic or security engineering competency of an altcoin is inversely proportional to the flashiness of the web presence)
02:06 < bsm1175321> Can it also ask voters if they know dick all about software engineering or crypto?
02:06 < nsh> :)
02:06 < bsm1175321> I typed to slow, nsh beat me to the punchline.
02:06 < nsh> these guys look like language/typesystem wonks. might be vaguely interesting :)
02:06 < katu> nsh: im still waiting for nomic blockchain
02:06 < katu> is that it?
02:07 < nsh> as in the game nomic?
02:07 < katu> yea, this looks like a nomic
02:07 < katu> but sadly not for consensus rules
02:07 < katu> boring
02:07 < nsh> there was a proposal for a blockchain where the consensus or other logic was alterable by participants
02:07 < nsh> not sure i recall enough to find it again quickly though
02:08 < bsm1175321> There's this bizarre notion out there that if we just "poll the sheeple" everything will turn out okay, right?!?!?  Let me introduce you to my friend, Byzantine...
02:08 < nsh> allowing for stability to arise from a dynamic-equilibrium-finding process rather than a priori engineering is an interesting idea
02:08 < nsh> and possible viable
02:08 < katu> nsh: yea, its a pretty tough thing to implement
02:09 < katu> as you need the ability to restart from old forks when current consensus decides to jump back in time (because everybody agreed current rules just screwed the utxo)
02:09 < katu> and it gets all sorts of self referential, quite not unlike various PoS attacks
02:09 < nsh> as natural languages evolve through usage and affect-charge accrual and results in partial and overlapping covering sets of roughly-consensuated meaning, it's not inconceivable at least
02:09 < bsm1175321> Systems do not, in general, to find dynamic equilibrium.  Even the  simple predator/prey problem has very unpredictable behavior.
02:10 < nsh> but there's a lot more wiggle-room in how a sentence is parsed than how a transaction is processed
02:10  * nsh nods
02:10 < nsh> utterance i should say, to avoid literalism
02:10 < adlai> there's zennet/tauchain, also the project of typesystem monks
02:10 < nsh> hmm
02:12 < katu> tezos src looks fun though
02:13 < katu> the amendable consensus code is proposed in ml, switch on majority. it all suffers from horrible NaS-like problems
02:14 < katu> but better than playing a nomic over mailing list i suppose :)
02:16 < bsm1175321> They seem to really dislike a "roundtable", whatever that is...
02:18 < bsm1175321> I can only assume they meant round-robin...
02:18 < bsm1175321> Or maybe duck-duck-goose?
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06:42 < vega4> R.I.P asics,well, at least when they tweak the quantum gates just a little more http://fortune.com/2016/08/07/programable-quantum-computer/
06:47 < cjd> and when they get from 5 qbits to a few thousand
06:47 < cjd> word on the street is it's a few decades off
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08:02 < NewLiberty> We don't even know enough about what quantum computing will do to determine what algos might not succumb to it.
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08:11 < wumpus> I don't know about you, but I'm getting quite sick of all the 'oh no all current cryptosystems are dead' quantum-computing related FUD, I'd wish they'd either just get the thing working or shut up about it until I'm dead :)
08:15 < sipa> Quantun computing is trading exponential runtime for exponential engineering time.
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08:20 < Eliel> sipa: I might want to quote that someday somewhere :)
08:21 < sipa> i don't know from whom i got ot
08:22 < wumpus> yes good quote
08:23 < sipa> it may also turn out to be completely false
08:24 < cjd> lol excellent quote
08:26 < sipa> i'm sure decades ago people thought the same about traditional computing chip design
08:28 < Eliel> I suppose the computing chip turned out to be useful in improving computing chips faster
08:28 < cjd> yup HDL language
08:29 < kanzure> is speculative exccution an improvement though? hehe
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09:18 < nsh> it's possible that quantum algorithmics requires a jump in human mathematical or physical understanding or intuition that technological and materials science accelerating gains cannot provide
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11:14 < gmaxwell> petertodd: https://www.imperialviolet.org/2016/09/19/roughtime.html  hohoho.
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11:15 < gmaxwell> "oh crap, people turned our time server into a cryptocurrency."
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11:20 < bsm117532> FWIW, the best possible inherent resolution of bitcoin, braids, or a similar system as a clock is given by the time to cross the network (aka orphan rate), so ~5s (due to Bitcoin's randomly interconnected p2p network).  A bit of averaging heuristics could get this down below a second, but not a heck of a lot better than that.
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11:24 < bsm117532> Come join us tomorrow to discuss Rootstock if you're in NYC: https://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/events/234098435/
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11:37 < petertodd> gmaxwell: interesting! I actually proposed that a few years back on the cyrptography mailing list
11:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: although, I proposed the version w/ opentimestamps so it could scale indefinitely
11:38 < petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, I see, yeah, they're doing a merkle tree too - good
11:43 < bsm117532> How many "honest" roughtime servers are required?  How many roughtime servers does an attacker need to spin up to usefully modify someone's clock?  And what's the cost of that?
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11:49 < kanzure> "Very briefly: using some tricks we believe that it's viable to deploy servers that sign a client-chosen nonce and timestamp on demand. Once you have several of these servers, clients can generate their nonces by hashing replies from other servers with some entropy. That proves that a nonce was created after the reply was received. Clients maintain a chain of nonces and replies and, if a server misbehaves, can use replies from several ...
11:49 < kanzure> ... other servers to prove and report it."
11:50 < kanzure> some more lightning routing stuff https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2016-September/000616.html
11:50 < bsm117532> What's the consequence of "reporting it"?  It seems this scheme easily falls to a sybil attack.
11:50 < petertodd> bsm117532: they're trusted servers, not anonymous junk
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11:51 < petertodd> bsm117532: same security model as certificate transparency
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11:53 < petertodd> bsm117532: https://roughtime.googlesource.com/roughtime/+/HEAD/ECOSYSTEM.md
11:56 < bsm117532> The economic cost of introducing a false timestamp in Bitcoin is superior to their vauge notion of an ecosystem of trusted servers and human auditing of fraud proofs, IMHO.
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12:39 < petertodd> bsm117532: yeah, but they're aiming for 10 second accuracy; bitcoin's accuracy is more like hours
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12:57 < bsm117532> That time resolution has absolutely nothing to do with a security model.
12:59 < cjd> 10 second accuracy, that's pretty nice
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13:04 < petertodd> bsm117532: yes it does - 10 second accuracy probably can't be done in a decentralized system like Bitcoin
13:06 < cjd> annoyingly we could just have one really honest guy sign all of the bitcoin blocks and if he ever signed a double-spend you could prove it
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17:46 < maaku> I nominate Bob.
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 21 00:00:00 2016