--- Log opened Tue Sep 27 00:00:05 2016 00:02 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@82.201.93.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:09 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@adsl-71-129-112-198.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:22 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- CrazyTruthYakDDS [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ekucerbnroicsgsm] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:47 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:51 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:52 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 -!- garit [~garit@unaffiliated/garit] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 < garit> lets imagine this: we have billions of dots and trillions of relation between them showing attraction or repulsion. is it possible to use calculation about best folding of this structure as a proof of calculation(like hash in BTC)? is it possible to use small zones on this map, or can computers work with such large data at once? 01:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:42 < garit> idea is that its very hard to find a best folding of this structure but very easy to check if its better than some other folding by calculating correlation between distances and attraction/repulsion relations 01:58 -!- unlord_ [unlord@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:10 -!- 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[~snthsnth@mbp.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:20 -!- AEM- is now known as aem 15:21 < johnhardy> Does anybody know how rootstock plans to scale? 15:21 -!- roadcrap [~roadcrap@74.3.186.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:22 < johnhardy> I had an idea for a tree of infinite blockchains, all with different properties (such as block creation time, approved opcodes). All block chains could communicate with their direct parent and children. They would all have their own addresses, like IPs, and you include the address of the deepest descendant blockchain you're hashing, so you can only mine on one at a time. You can use a hash on any parent blockchains if it m 15:23 -!- roadcrap [~roadcrap@74.3.186.175] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:23 < johnhardy> e blockchain tree you have the master which is basically a DNS like registry of all the blockchains, and has the highest security, but also the highest transaction costs. 15:24 < sipa> how do the chains communicate? 15:24 < johnhardy> The idea is, trying to design a one size fits all (and forever) approach to scaling doesn't work, so creating a protocol that enables every shape and flavour to coexist and communicate, and the free market decides which succeed. 15:24 < kanzure> do you have an implementatio? 15:24 < kanzure> .. implementation 15:25 < johnhardy> I wrote about the idea on my blog 15:25 < sipa> johnhardy: this seems related to peter todd's treechains idea 15:25 < johnhardy> It is related 15:25 < sipa> (which i think always had unsolved issues) 15:25 < johnhardy> https://seebitcoin.com/2016/09/introducing-buzz-a-turing-complete-concept-for-scaling-bitcoin-to-infinity-and-beyond/ 15:25 < kanzure> similar ideas have been written up many times. do you have an implementation? 15:26 < johnhardy> any child must always synchronise with all parent blockchains including the master. If there's a reorganisation higher up the tree (higher difficulty) it affects all children 15:27 < sipa> do parent chains verify that transfers from child chains are legitimate? 15:27 < johnhardy> I've not got a technical implementation, it borrows from many existing ideas. Its more a way of bringling lots of different ideas together into something potentially infinitely scalable and dynamic. 15:28 < johnhardy> No, there is no verification by parents 15:28 < johnhardy> but a child chain can never create coins, it can only ever pass back up coins it has already recieved 15:28 < sipa> so child chain miners can steal all the funds? 15:28 < johnhardy> like a 2 way peg 15:28 < sipa> (that are in that child) 15:29 < johnhardy> merge mining with bitcoin blockchain and layer 2 solution, all the parent-child blockchains communicate in that same way 15:29 < sipa> merge mining isn't secure without an incentive to cooperate 15:29 < johnhardy> child miners cannot brake protocol rules or their blocks will be disregarded 15:30 < sipa> but parent chains don't validate 15:30 < sipa> sure, child chain full nodes will reject the theft 15:30 < sipa> but the parent chain full nodes won't, as they don't validate the child's internal transfers 15:31 < sipa> and since your child chain does not offer any reward beyond fees, it may be very hard to incentivize the miners on those not to steal the funds 15:32 < johnhardy> The mechanism used to take bitcoin out, and put it into a separate system like rootstock, and then be able to return that. Would that mechanism not work? 15:33 < sipa> barring the use of snarks for full validation of other chains, you can't make something where the transfer between two chains is more secure than what the child chain can pay in rewards 15:33 < sipa> as far as i know 15:33 < sipa> which is why i think sidechains are a bad idea beyond experimentation 15:33 < kanzure> sipa: wait does your opinion apply to multiple signers acting as functionaries for a peg? 15:33 < sipa> kanzure: no 15:34 -!- roadcrap [~roadcrap@74.3.186.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34 < sipa> using a federation for signing is the default solution to a model where you have trusted known parties 15:35 < sipa> proof of work (of which merge mining is an instantiation) is only needed if you want to get rid of those known identities, but it comes at the cost of changing your security assumptions: you're not longer assuming that the signers (miners now) are honest per se, you're assuming they're economically rational 15:36 < sipa> if your security assumption is "a majority of miners is honest, unconditionally", you're much better off replacing them with a federation 15:37 < sipa> so that means that any system that relies on PoW as consensus algorithm only has an advantage over a federated setup when in fact you do not unconditionally trust miners 15:38 < sipa> johnhardy: it would work, but it will only be secure under very questionable assumptions 15:38 < luke-jr> while true, the reality isn't so black-and-white IMO 15:39 < luke-jr> even if we limit the comparison to fed vs SPV, SPV at least requires a *prolonged* compromise of the trusted parties 15:39 < johnhardy> There is an acceptance of the system that the lower you go down the chain, the lower the hashrate/security. However the cheaper it gets 15:39 < kanzure> security status should ideally not be a shade of grey :P 15:39 < luke-jr> and obviously neither can compare to full-node security 15:39 < johnhardy> It leaves security and cost to the free market 15:39 < luke-jr> kanzure: that seems unavoidable :p 15:39 < sipa> johnhardy: i disagree. even at the first layer below the top, things break down 15:39 < johnhardy> If I was buying a house, I'd be on a high level blockchain. If I was buying a coffe I'd be on weak security 15:40 < sipa> johnhardy: if you're not paying miners ridiculously high fees there, there is no rational economic argument for its security 15:40 < kanzure> luke-jr: elaborate? 15:40 < luke-jr> johnhardy: it's not necessarily strong vs weak either. Lightning is arguably just as strong as the main chain, but has different security properties 15:40 < luke-jr> kanzure: there is no perfect security 15:41 < sipa> of course, it may well work in practice - maybe miners in your reality just won't behave dishonest at all... so much the better 15:41 < johnhardy> I agree, everything below the top level is a security compromise. However the only possible way to scale is to compromise 15:41 < johnhardy> If you want security you have to pay for it 15:42 < johnhardy> What sort of dishonst behaviour are you anticipating? 15:42 < sipa> stealing all the funds in all layers below 15:42 < sipa> which is something the top-level miners can do at any time in your design (correct me if i'm wrong) 15:43 < sipa> they can only steal as much as is moved to lower-level chains of course 15:44 < sipa> but if you want a scalable system, you must assume that a large portion of the funds will move to lower layers 15:45 < kanzure> i think drivechain was proposing OP_CHECK_VOTES_MULTISIG_VERIFY http://www.rootstock.io/blog/sidechains-drivechains-and-rsk-2-way-peg-design 15:45 < sipa> and in such a setting you've essentially surrendered control over the economics of your system to miners 15:45 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.181] has quit [Changing host] 15:45 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46 < kanzure> sipa: right. if you are willing to use that security model, then i think you might not need "miners" anyway. so you might as well move away from that model. 15:46 < sipa> kanzure: exactly 15:46 < kanzure> i think you can trivially show some scalability improvements from not using miners (in that security model). so you have no reason not to do that..... 15:46 < sipa> i'd rather have some elected politicians in charge of my currency than anonymous chinese ceos 15:46 < kanzure> er i didn't mean politically; i meant in terms of software implementation detail. 15:47 < sipa> well, mining is an incredibly expensive alternative to trusted identities 15:47 < sipa> it's the only one we have, but we shouldn't use it for systems that don't need it 15:48 < kanzure> so i think the original proposal was "use multisig/escrow on the mainchain" for the peg. 15:50 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51 -!- asoltys [~bitcoinco@23.94.96.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51 -!- asoltys [~bitcoinco@23.94.96.232] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51 -!- jessepollak [~jessepoll@104.131.138.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:51 < johnhardy> A feature of the system is that parents are aware of their children, and the hashing power of their children 15:52 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE3A15D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52 < johnhardy> This enables us to make certain security assumptions. If we know a child's hashrate, we can have a lock period and make sure no reports of bad behavious emerge 15:52 -!- mhanne_ [~mhanne@mail.nonymous.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:52 < johnhardy> *behaviour 15:52 < sipa> you don't know the honest hashrate of the children, though 15:53 < johnhardy> You do 15:53 -!- jessepollak [~jessepoll@104.131.138.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 < sipa> ? 15:53 < johnhardy> You know the hashrate by how frequently they mine a block that meets your difficulty 15:53 < sipa> sure 15:53 -!- RedEmerald_ [~RedEmeral@c-73-231-129-86.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:53 < sipa> that doesn't mean they're honest 15:53 < johnhardy> and you can see the entire hashrate history 15:54 < johnhardy> true, but you only need >51% to be honest 15:54 -!- mhanne [~mhanne@mail.nonymous.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 < johnhardy> and you can recognise when hashrate suddenly increases, and build in certain extra security precautions 15:54 < kanzure> that number is not right 15:55 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@2601:646:4101:16c8:c7:e5ff:fe00:1c0b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 < sipa> am i wrong to say that a majority of the root chain can steal all the funds? 15:55 < sipa> they can censor all reports of bad behaviour 15:55 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:55 < johnhardy> It is right, depending on how long of a confirmation period you have. If someone tries to steal, and then a good miner tries to undo the transaction before it is finalised... as long as 51% are good miners and they have enough time, they will be able to prevent it 15:56 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:56 < sipa> i'm saying you cannot unconditionally assume that 51% is honest 15:56 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:56 < sipa> because that is not necessarily the best rational strategy 15:56 < kanzure> and that if you do make that assumption, then you should change your design to take advantage of that new trust model 15:56 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 < sipa> it is in bitcoin, assuming miners have horizons of a few months 15:57 < johnhardy> There are probably security improvements that can be implemented as a result of parents being notified about their children from time to time 15:57 < sipa> because the subsidy they'd lose by attacking the system is worse than what they can gain (and the amounts transferred aren't too large) 15:57 < sipa> but your child chains don't have any subsidy 15:58 < johnhardy> My concept is more an overview, a big vision of how infinite scaling could be accomplished. there are technical challenges, but I think there's some interesting ideas, some of which might be useful, some of which might not 15:58 < sipa> no, there are not technical challenges 15:58 -!- qpm [~qpm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic/bot/qpm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 < sipa> you can't overcome them without having the parent chain somehow verify that transfers from children are legitimate 15:58 < johnhardy> If you have time, please have a look at the blog post if you haven't, it better articulates the concept and its goals: https://seebitcoin.com/2016/09/introducing-buzz-a-turing-complete-concept-for-scaling-bitcoin-to-infinity-and-beyond/ 15:58 < sipa> otherwise you're reducing your entire sub-chain ecosystem to SPV 15:59 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:86:3011::1] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 16:00 < johnhardy> How come this same issue isn't considered a deal breaker for a two way peg with Bitcoin? 16:01 < kanzure> it is. 16:03 < johnhardy> I mean, I agree the issue is there, I just don't think its a deal breaker 16:04 < kanzure> we already went over what you should do if you're willing to use your different security assumptions 16:09 < johnhardy> Cool, I don't have the time to write a proper implementation, it's just a concept I wanted to discuss with the community, thank you all for participating 16:14 -!- gwillen is now known as gwillen|chair 16:20 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@2602:306:ccba:570:8deb:6b1:c611:d53f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@2602:306:ccba:570:8deb:6b1:c611:d53f] has quit [Changing host] 16:22 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:26 -!- johnhardy [4f4270d4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.66.112.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:26 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@128.54.241.175] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:32 -!- tromp [~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:35 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-68-62-95-247.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 49.0.1/20160922113459]] 17:01 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has quit [Quit: I'm Gone!] 17:14 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:18 -!- johnhardy [4f4270d4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.66.112.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 < johnhardy> OK, I had a little think about how you could improve the security in a blockchain tree for passing coins to a parent 17:21 < johnhardy> Since child nodes must synchronise all parent blockchains to the top of the tree, this means you could create an alert system. If a bad miner tried to create a transaction to steal bitcoins and get the transaction mined in a block on the parent... 17:22 < johnhardy> the nodes would see that can could broadcast a proof to their peers in the parent blockchain 17:22 < johnhardy> and then you wouldnt mine on that block 17:23 < johnhardy> so the block would fail 17:24 < johnhardy> We don't have to limit ourselves to the security model of a two way peg with bitcoin where bitcoin is "blind". While parents cannot see child blockchains, they are aware of them and can recieve messages and proofs from them 17:31 -!- johnhardy [4f4270d4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.66.112.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35 -!- Newyorkadam [~Newyorkad@wikipedia/Newyorkadam] has quit [Quit: Newyorkadam] 17:45 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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