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error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:12 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:26 -!- baxt [~Mutter@136.0.0.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:29 -!- baxt [~Mutter@136.0.0.238] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 04:46 -!- atgreen [~green@CPE687f74122463-CM00fc8d24cab0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:56 -!- _rht [uid86914@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-joaazigdvclecccn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.239.231] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@131.155.239.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@107-142-8-22.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- jouke [~jouke@a83-163-42-163.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:40 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:46 -!- jnewbery [~jnewbery@rrcs-67-251-193-154.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:59 -!- atgreen [~green@24.114.71.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:10 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:19 < waxwing> e0: the puzzle-solver redeem transactions broadcast by the tumbler would have 15 preimages each of size 16 bytes (lamba_1=128), is that right? 06:19 < waxwing> i'm trying to find it on the blockchain but can't get the numbers right, e.g. i think this is one: https://blockchain.info/tx/5d6370925491430a5872315fa8ceb2051c7dfd684458efc17bab7866cde576fc 06:20 < waxwing> i seem to be wrong one way or another :) 06:32 -!- jl2012_ is now known as jl2012 06:36 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- Yitzhak [~yitzhak48@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:00 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- Yitzhak [~yitzhak48@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:03 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@ool-ad03f15d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:05 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@ool-ad03f15d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:10 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:25 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:31 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:39 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < nicolagreco> Question about multisig and malleability: If I send a transaction to an address of (myKey, h(some data)) - with the aim to store extra data on the chain, can someone intercept this request, change it to (myKey, h(fakedata)) ? 07:44 < Taek> nicolagreco: not if your signature covers the data. 07:45 < Taek> transaction malleability primarily refers to the fact that given some data and a valid signature, you can create an alternate valid signature on the same data. This changes the transaction id, which causese problems for anyone who uses transaction ids 07:52 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:54 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.186.73.245] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:58 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:00 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.186.73.245] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:04 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:06 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: it would be better to send the data to myKey + h(some data, myPublicKey) since this will take no extra blockchain space, will work with standard transactions, and has better privacy properties 08:09 -!- jtimon [~quassel@150.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 < Taek> katu, andytoshi: finally got a jute draft that I'm happy with. 08:33 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33 < Taek> gist.github.com/Taek42/3e4f029261b5719e4587fe4972fb904a 08:34 < Taek> The most interesting part is 'The Jute Ordering Algorithm', most of the stuff after that I just kinda puked out 08:37 < Taek> I think the most useful advancement was deciding to confirm DAG edges instead of DAG nodes. 09:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 09:10 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:11 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@104.193.169-200.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:02 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.169.83.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- jnewbery [~jnewbery@rrcs-67-251-193-154.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08 -!- droark [~droark@66.171.94.17] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:09 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:14 -!- jnewbery [~jnewbery@rrcs-67-251-193-154.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:40 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:42 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:43 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.169.83.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:53 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- Commandroid [~commanddr@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@172.56.30.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:05 < andytoshi> Taek: nit: under 'High Variance Mining Rewards', the number of blocks found is poisson 11:05 < andytoshi> (the time to find blocks is exponential) 11:08 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@107-142-8-22.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:16 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:18 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:19 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:19 < andytoshi> Taek: i'm a bit confused about this algorithm for voting .. i set `parent` to the genesis block then look at the votes on all edges from parent to its children 11:19 < andytoshi> so an edge from A to B means B commits to A 11:20 < andytoshi> now, it seems like to get these vote counts i need to recurse? the algorithm as written seems to suggest that i know them already 11:22 -!- NewLiberty_ is now known as NewLiberty 11:25 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 -!- commandroid [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-71.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33 -!- commandroid [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33 < andytoshi> ok, i think i understand the merge algo actually, well enough at least that i can make my own examples.. 11:33 < andytoshi> will votes eventually be weighted by difficulty? 11:35 < andytoshi> i'm a little nervous about this "don't allow merges after enough work", this has the feel to me like "don't allow reorgs after too long" which leads to permanent forks. but it's different, of course, because merges are committed to by tips, so if somebody tried to do this there wouldn't be any partition who thought it was legitimate.. 11:35 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@137.110.59.85] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@137.110.59.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:43 < waxwing> e0: or anyone else that knows about tumblebit, i'm having trouble understanding step 2 of the puzzle promise protocol on pg13; the real transactions seem to have a random (rho_i) appended before hashing, but this doesn't seem to make sense (no point signing a real tx with a random pad). when i look at the poc code, it seems like there is no such pad (and randomness is achieved through the receiving address being random, which i think makes sense 11:43 < waxwing> ). 11:44 < andytoshi> i think in the paper it is not assumed that transactions have secret random data in them 11:46 < waxwing> andytoshi: yes, i agree, just step 2 in that protocol (and the footnote to the table/figure) it talks specifically about appending random padding to CashoutTFormat 11:47 < waxwing> whole thing makes sense to me apart from that bit. 11:50 < andytoshi> waxwing: if the tx does not contain secret data not known to the tumbler, then the tumbler could in principle distinguish the real commitments from the fake ones 11:50 < andytoshi> that was my understanding when i read the paper 11:50 < andytoshi> what's in the code sounds like an optimization based on the fact that the transaction output is already a random pad 11:51 -!- commandroid [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 < waxwing> andytoshi: ok that makes sense to me, except it isn't optional, you couldn't random-pad the real one(s) because then T would be ecdsa signing something useless. or did i miss something. 11:52 < andytoshi> waxwing: the ECDSA signature is totally separate from the blind signature that the tumbler gives 11:52 < andytoshi> at the point when the tumbler makes an ECDSA signature, it has the real tx 11:52 < nicolagreco> andytoshi: would that not pollute utxo ? when you use +, you mean concatenation or addition? 11:52 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: i mean addition 11:53 < andytoshi> nicolagreco: i should have added *G to the thing i added, i was being ambiguous because i wasn't sure if myKey was public or private 11:53 < waxwing> andytoshi: i'm talking about step 5 in the puzzle promise. there it ecdsa signs the hash of all the reals and all the fakes. 11:53 -!- commandroid [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53 -!- commandroid [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- commandroid is now known as Guest14072 11:54 -!- Guest14072 [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:54 -!- Guest14072 [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- Guest14072 [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55 < waxwing> the fakes have random pads, and according to step 2 (although the term. isn't that clear), it seems to be saying the reals also have random rho_i. (it signs the "beta_i" values which are the ht_i and ft_i) 11:57 -!- Guest23412434 [~commandro@189-210-193-42.static.axtel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:58 -!- Guest23412434 is now known as commandroid 12:01 < bsm117532> Taek: Are these "votes" equivalent to evaluating the highest work? 12:09 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@128.54.234.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@107-142-8-22.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:22 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@172.56.30.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:22 < andytoshi> waxwing: yeah, you're right 12:22 < andytoshi> but note that every real challenge needs to have different randomness in it 12:23 < andytoshi> so i think the paper is just weirdly written, it should say something like "T_cash^i = CashOutFormat(p_i)" and explain that CashOutFormat() takes randomness and produces the signaturehash of a transaction outputting to some address owned by B 12:23 < andytoshi> cuz even "the unsigned portion of a transaction" is not right, it has to be the signature hash 12:32 < andytoshi> (i seem to remember getting stuck on this point too, though i don't remembre how i resolved it) 12:35 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-68-173-72-120.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:41 < Taek> andytoshi: all votes are weighted by difficulty, yeah. Not allowing merges after enough work is actually poorly defined, I think you'd want to outright use the same 'max gap' rule from before. But this time the threshold is set very high 12:42 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-68-173-72-120.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 12:43 < Taek> I think you could set it at something more like 24 hours, but already '2000' means that in the past 3 hours, more than 2000 blocks have ignored you 12:44 < andytoshi> sure 12:44 < Taek> And those 2000 blocks all have enough work to be ordered under you. 12:44 < andytoshi> well if the goal is to avoid orphan risk from slow propagation, this is fine 12:45 < Taek> the only reason I have it is because you can't have blocks building off of the genesis block 5 years later 12:45 < Taek> the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and preferably inside of the most recent difficulty adjustment 12:45 < andytoshi> yeah, absolutely 12:45 < andytoshi> i had a similar problem with MW, i just had to eat it (since near the tip i'm using satoshi consensus, this is not so bad) 12:48 < Taek> bsm117532: the 'votes' help you figure out which cohort to add to the dag next, but the highest work is measured by counting the total number of decendents of the tip block 12:49 < Taek> So I would say that they are different, though 'votes' are sort of like confirmations. They are weaker though because you don't end up confirming every route in the DAG, only a single route 12:50 < Taek> After the network has converged, every single block will vote for the same route past wherever the convergence point was, so in the long term it does end up being as strong as Bitcoin confirmations 12:50 < Taek> it's just that the security is delayed until the convergence starts 12:55 < bsm117532> Let's say some miner keeps mining blocks with their only parent as the genesis block. Will they get merged? 12:56 < Taek> only if their gap height never exceeds 2000, which means some block from the main chain would have to be merging them in. So, no they won't get merged 12:56 < bsm117532> Ok so you're putting in an arbitrary cutoff that disallows forks longer than a certain length? 12:57 < Taek> Essentially, yes. Though it's a very large cutoff, b/c you don't want any reasonable situation where an attacker could get that many blocks in a row and start orphaning honest blocks 12:58 < bsm117532> I had kind of decided to allow merging of all such blocks. But it turns everything into one giant cohort. That's not in itself a problem but complicates making references to chain state. 12:58 < Taek> 2000 blocks (at a 5 second block time) is a huge threshold to hit if you have minority hashrate 12:58 < bsm117532> I'm more concerned about healing network forks, and I don't want to have to guess how long it will take to restore connectivity... 12:59 < Taek> like a partition? 12:59 < bsm117532> yes 12:59 < Taek> if there's a partition that lasts multiple hours, one side is going to win and cause a bunch of orphans on the other side. To me that seems like a pretty reasonable failure mode though. 13:00 < bsm117532> I'd allow the merge, but double-spends would be decided in favor of the majority hashpower fork of course. This is more along the lines of the "inclusive" blockchains -- keep all blocks regardless of content. 13:02 < Taek> you run into a problem where someone can continually mine a torrent of blocks by using a parent from a time where the difficulty is 1% the current difficulty. Then you run into network throughput problems 13:02 < bsm117532> That would be a dumb difficulty targeting algorithm... 13:03 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@104.193.169-200.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 13:04 < Taek> ? 13:04 < Taek> it's how Bitcoin currently works 13:05 -!- jtimon [~quassel@150.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:06 < bsm117532> I'd also say Bitcoin's retargeting is "dumb" ;-) 13:06 < bsm117532> As many altcoins discovered... 13:06 < Taek> The difficulty is going to be approximately tracking the product of a coin's growth and moore's law 13:07 < bsm117532> Taek: did you describe a difficulty targeting algorithm in your doc? 13:07 < Taek> regardless of how you are doing difficulty adjustment, if you mine on a block from some weeks ago, it's likely going to have an appreciably lower difficulty. 13:07 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:07 -!- droark [~droark@66.171.94.17] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 13:08 < Taek> I just kind of handwaved over that part. Naively you could just set the retarget to every 2 weeks, (every 241,920 blocks) and then just keep the same algo as Bitcoin 13:09 < Taek> I came up with a new difficulty adjustment algorithm that lets you update ~every block without introducing the tailspins that usually occur 13:09 < Taek> but ultimately I don't think it's necessary and want to keep things simple 13:09 < bsm117532> I've been working on a window-based retargeting. The retarget, like blocks are a synchronous event and the system can't tolerate two at once. So it makes sense to take into account the fundamental asynchronicity of the network -- which means that at any given time there's a range of difficulty targets that could be acceptible. 13:10 < Taek> If I was to make another coin, I'd use a difficulty adjustment algorithm that updated as frequently as possible. Just need to mix in some extra-algebra to prevent volatility 13:11 < bsm117532> Yeah my retargeting is continuous. So the acceptable window moves with time and is updated with each block. 13:11 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@14.169.83.138] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 < waxwing> andytoshi: agreed, yeah, sorry for sidetracking you :) probably it was just unclear-ness in the way it's written. 13:33 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:35 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:37 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgfwerkpsbpcsclb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:45 -!- atgreen [~green@24.114.71.38] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:58 -!- jtimon [~quassel@150.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02 -!- atgreen [~green@24.114.71.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- commandroid 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22:59 -!- cjd [~user@2c0f:f930:2:12::] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:00 -!- cjd [~user@2c0f:f930:2:12::] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01 -!- spinza [~spin@197.93.207.106] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:04 -!- spinza [~spin@197.93.207.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:05 -!- cjd [~user@2c0f:f930:2:12::] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:05 -!- cjd [~user@2c0f:f930:2:12::] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:13 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:14 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:15 -!- skang404 [~user@27.6.192.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:20 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:46 < skang404> Hey I have ques regarding segwit.. Aren't BLS signatures like ring 23:46 < skang404> signatures and Can BLS scheme/balloon be applied to CT? 23:50 -!- gabridome [~gabridome@host189-56-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: gabridome] 23:52 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 23:53 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 23:54 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Sat Oct 01 00:00:09 2016