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[Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:02 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04 -!- gielbier [~gielbier@unaffiliated/gielbier] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:08 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:14 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 < bsm117532> Taek: When merging multiple parents, using a PRNG to select the "winner" doesn't mean that the miner can't select the winner, it just means he has to mine an extra block on the branch of the parent he wants to "win". 07:22 -!- iddo [~idddo@hyena.cs.cornell.edu] has quit [Changing host] 07:22 -!- iddo [~idddo@unaffiliated/iddo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:25 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:27 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 < bsm117532> Do you know if mining this extra block a required element to hit the 51% guarantee in the asymptotic limit? 07:47 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:03 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26 -!- markus-k [~markus-k@2a00:ea8:400:3:bc7a:f42f:fbb5:7b78] has quit [Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 08:28 -!- Guyver2__ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:28 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:40 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.138.86] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 08:50 < andytoshi> are there any altcoins using cuckoo cycle that i can poke at the implementation of? 08:51 < tromp__> no. but what would you like to see? 08:51 < tromp__> cuckoo cycle solvers are on my project page 08:52 < tromp__> both monero and zcash are considering adopting Cuckoo Cycle next year 08:52 < andytoshi> oh, thanks tromp__, i'm just trying to learn how it works in some detail. in particular you mentioned there was a slow startup phase and that a longer blocktime might be needed for progress-freeness, and i want to know what the numbers look like 08:52 < tromp__> oh, those numbers are on https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo 08:52 < tromp__> slowness depends on memory use 08:52 < andytoshi> oh, ok, sorry, i should've read more than 20% of the readme before posting here then :0 08:52 < andytoshi> :) 08:53 < tromp__> to quote: The runtime of a single proof attempt on a high end x86 is 5.5min/GB single-threaded, or 1.5min/GB for 8 threads. 08:53 < tromp__> GPUs are between 4 and 5 times faster 08:55 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:55 < andytoshi> can you adjust difficulty without adjusting memory requirement? 08:55 < tromp__> so it's fast enough for a 10min block interval if you limit memory use to about 128MB 08:56 < tromp__> not really, no 08:56 < andytoshi> ok, cool, thanks 08:56 < tromp__> there is a fixed ratio between memory use and runtime 08:57 < andytoshi> yeah, i guess that makes sense if your TMTO free 08:57 < tromp__> independent of cycle length, for instance 08:57 -!- obs [~obs@246.54.150.83.ftth.ewwwb.as8758.net] has quit [Quit: obs] 08:57 < tromp__> well, equihash allows some more freedom there 08:58 < tromp__> although you cannot take that too far, with proofsize being exponential in k 08:58 -!- obs [~obs@246.54.150.83.ftth.ewwwb.as8758.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:58 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:58 < tromp__> i was suprised zcash chose proofs of several KB 08:59 < tromp__> due to the rather large k=9 09:00 < tromp__> btw, would blockstream like to donate some BTC to the Cuckoo Cycle Bounty Fund? 09:00 < tromp__> I'm hoping to significantly raise my bounties 09:00 < tromp__> to 10BTC per performance doubling 09:01 < andytoshi> i'll forward it, but i think our interest is purely academic right now 09:01 < tromp__> fair enough:) 09:04 -!- Saggo [d47094e1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.112.148.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:04 -!- stan_ [~stan@LAubervilliers-656-1-238-191.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 < andytoshi> i don't know anything about equihash, i understand it's a scheme for using multiple pow functions? this makes me nervous about optimization-freeness, i'd expect if cuckoo was mem-hard and nothing else was that it'd just be ignored by high-powered miners 09:06 < tromp__> no, it's based on the generalized birthday paradox 09:07 < tromp__> but where cuckoo cycle seems to be memory latency bound, equihash is more memory bandwidth bound 09:08 < tromp__> it may be much less optimization-free than cuckoo though, due to nontrivial data structure and algorithm options 09:09 < andytoshi> yeah, i havent' looked closely, it seems like cuckoo is simpler. tho maybe i'm just mistaking familiarity for simplicity 09:10 < tromp__> cuckoo is definitely simpler. both in problem statement and implementation 09:11 < tromp__> well, talking about prt of implementation that dominates runtime 09:11 < tromp__> the final processing phase is rather subtle, but only take 1 or 2% of runtime:) 09:34 -!- se3000 [~textual@38.125.163.25] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 -!- bobbytherobby [448419a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.132.25.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 < bobbytherobby> Hey guys quick question. I know it's possible to encode a "memo" into a Confidential Tx. I'm just wondering where this memo would be specified. Any hints are extremely welcome lol 09:40 < waxwing> bobbytherobby: embedded into the range proof attached to the output (xored in) 09:41 < bobbytherobby> sweet thank you very much 09:42 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-11-214.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- nikivi [~nikivi@dhcp-077-250-172-150.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 -!- xcvxcv [448419a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.132.25.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 -!- xcvxcv [448419a8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.132.25.168] has quit [Client Quit] 09:52 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59 < waxwing> bobbytherobby: original write up is here: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/confidential_values.txt , and if you're trying to figure out exactly how it works i tried to explain it in section 3.4 here: https://github.com/AdamISZ/ConfidentialTransactionsDoc/blob/master/essayonCT.pdf 10:01 < andytoshi> bobbytherobby: the current CT code doesn't let you specify the memo, though it supports it (the required changes are entirely limited to the API) 10:04 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@185pc230.sshunet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:04 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@185pc230.sshunet.nl] has quit [Changing host] 10:04 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:06 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:11 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- stan_ [~stan@LAubervilliers-656-1-238-191.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:21 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@2605:6400:20:11aa:189e:28a5:52ed:8948] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:23 -!- Expanse [sid146237@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ypgbiflrvwtokrcx] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:25 -!- runeks [sid21167@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-afsketbbzecngqpl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:27 -!- Expanse [sid146237@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dewotxnwzfmiqwii] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 -!- runeks [sid21167@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-szxnwsdelakxqnsm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 -!- wpalczynski [sid55851@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nyevescerttnvzvj] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:27 -!- huseby [~huseby@unaffiliated/huseby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:29 -!- wpalczynski [sid55851@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qjrlzwgvmpbuynav] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:38 -!- burak [~burak@139.179.195.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- burak is now known as Guest51794 10:42 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.172.156.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:47 -!- Guyver2__ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 10:49 -!- smk [1872446e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.114.68.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- seventy [~seventy@d51a41d17.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:03 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14 -!- smk [1872446e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.114.68.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:15 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:17 -!- Saggo [d47094e1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.112.148.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:17 -!- JackH [~laptop@79-73-185-184.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE39B23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:52 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:54 -!- v20100 [~20100@166.62.165.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:56 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:58 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tztvnmvmpbncvhfz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qberivicvoqsthra] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:59 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-esevveyphvvmyxqo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzfuxohardngubvm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:09 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 < Taek> If intel actually did add SHA support to their CPUs, would it be possible to write competitive miners that used home computers? 12:15 < Taek> I'm sure the hashrate would be v. low, but if it paid for the electricy that went to power it? 12:15 < Taek> perhaps the road to fairness is paved by hardware accelleration as opposed to algoithms that are not ASIC friendly 12:17 < Taek> Do you know if mining this extra block a required element to hit the 51% guarantee in the asymptotic limit? 12:17 < Taek> no I'm pretty sure it's just an implementation detail, it only comes into play during ties 12:17 < Taek> for safety I typically assume the attacker will win all ties, just because it simplifies the math 12:18 < bsm117532> Ok. Yeah it doesn't hurt. 12:19 < bsm117532> I'd be very suprised if the +1 mattered in an asymptotic proof. 12:20 < Taek> so, in trying to figure out how we could bypass the convergence problem for very tiny block times, I had one idea 12:20 < Taek> and, this doesn't help your confirmation status 12:20 < Taek> but I was thinking if a block is X times as lucky, for a single value of X, then it'd get X/2 bonus votes down its edges 12:21 < Taek> For example, if you pick a block time of 1 second, you might put X at 20 12:21 < Taek> so every 20 seconds on average, someone random on the network would find a block with 10 seconds worth of weight 12:21 < Taek> that pretty much guarantees stuff will converge 12:21 < Taek> but also means an attacker can double spend if they get a bunch of these lucky blocks 12:22 < Taek> so you'd want to consider confirmations in terms of # of lucky blocks instead of total number of blocks 12:23 < Taek> which means you are still waiting 5-15 minutes to get a confirmation, and 60+ minutes if you fear a 45% hashrate attacker 12:28 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@bitcubator-gw.boh1-r2.syseleven.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:28 < bsm117532> The "settlement time" is a function of the network "size" parameter ~6s. Regardless of block time, the settlement time will be (few)*(size of network in s). IOW you have to wait until you can see the entire global state, whether that's graph cuts like cohorts or "lucky" blocks doesn't really matter. 12:28 < bsm117532> So what's the benefit of block times below the optimal one that I calculated? 12:28 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- Guest51794 [~burak@139.179.195.120] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:04 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:06 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@104.156.228.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- nonaTure [~nonaTure@bitcubator-gw.boh1-r2.syseleven.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:12 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18 < Taek> If you have more blocks flying around the network at the same time, you can more fully utilize the network infrastructure 13:18 < Taek> basically every node is always uploading and/or downloading 13:18 < Taek> and even doing so in batches, instead of only processing one block at a time 13:18 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:20 < Taek> maybe in reality the gains will not be as significant as I'm imagining 13:20 < Taek> the other benefit is that you get your security confirmations faster, but that benefit is removed if you are allowing random blocks to have a lot more voting power 13:20 < bsm117532> Dunno, that's a good argument. But this road leads to nuking the p2p layer too... 13:21 < bsm117532> You don't get security confirmations faster. You can't know what's happening on the other side of the world... 13:21 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21 < Taek> yeah I'm not sure how the p2p layer would handle a continuous stream of blocks like that 13:21 < Taek> the current system requires you to wait 60+ minutes for confirmations in the presence of a 45% hashrate attacker 13:22 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@93-33-110-54.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 < Taek> if the block time was 250ms you'd only need to wait like 5 minutes 13:23 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:24 < bsm117532> Well those gains have to come from improving the relay and network topology. 13:25 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:25 < bsm117532> Just turning down the block time won't let you get confirmations faster than the network propagates information. 13:26 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78.11.235.215] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:27 < Taek> the bottleneck is not network propagation speed, it's the fact that an adversary can get lucky and perform enough work to reorg the chain 13:28 < Taek> when you have 50 confirmations and a 45% hashrate attacker, getting lucky enough to reorg 50 deep will happen something like 1% of the time 13:28 < Taek> which is not a great security bound given that double spend attempts are costless when you don't have any orphans 13:29 < bsm117532> The bottleneck is the network propagation speed. If there are miners on Mars, you can't get settlement time below the ping time between miners. 13:29 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-11-214.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:29 < Taek> the bottleneck is eventually network propagation speed, but we've got an earlier bottleneck based on mining variance 13:29 < bsm117532> Oh I see what you're getting at... 13:31 < bsm117532> I just ran into your code that calculates that today...can you describe how you calculated it? 13:31 < Taek> yeah 13:32 < Taek> I'm actually not super confident that it's correct 13:32 < Taek> but basically it runs a bunch of network ticks 13:32 -!- needmoney90 [~needmoney@c-98-234-122-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 < Taek> and each tick the honest side of the hashrate and the dishonest side of the hashrate have some probability of finding a block 13:32 < Taek> it runs network ticks until one side reaches the desired number of confirmations 13:33 < Taek> then you have your winner 13:33 < bsm117532> Seems to me that would take an awful lot of iterations, especially as you approached 50%. 13:34 < bsm117532> Ok so you're not executing a specific attack strategy, just looking at reorg rate with a 45% miner? 13:34 < Taek> the attacker needs fewer confirmations, because we assume that the attacker is able to instantly propagate blocks, that is, the honest side of the network may have a block or two that were mined, but not propagated in time 13:34 < Taek> yeah just looking at how frequently a x% miner can cause a reorg Y blocks deep given Z block time and W propagation latency 13:34 < bsm117532> gotcha 13:35 < Taek> my numbers disagree with the numbers listed in the Bitcoin whitepaper 13:35 < bsm117532> I'm not sure assuming the attacker can instantly propagate blocks is a good assumption. It's valid for Bitcoin now with its randomly interconnected network, but ultimately the attacker is limited by physics and the network's topology should optimize. 13:36 < Taek> it keeps things simple, and guarantees that the attacker is not too weak 13:36 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:36 < bsm117532> e.g. right now an attacker can have a ~6s/250ms advantage because of the network, but with improvements that number approaches 1. 13:36 < Taek> if the attacker and the honest hashrate are all located in the same country, any assumptions about global latency could be invalidated 13:37 < bsm117532> True. That's why I want to directly measure the network latency from the graph structure. It will automatically adapt if hashrate collects in a small geographic area. 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#bitcoin-wizards 20:50 < uiuc-slack3> could you not just summarize mimblewimble with 20:50 < uiuc-slack3> something like a zero knowledge proof that says 20:51 < uiuc-slack3> ZkPoK_(inputs,outputs) { (txs): txs is a list of valid transactions, inputs are all the inputs of the txs, and outputs are some permutation of all the outputs of the txs } 20:55 < uiuc-slack3> all the stuff about sinking signatures and the crypto behind it is all just about implementing that efficiently (if you didn't care about efficiency, you could compile a reference protocol just from that spec) 20:57 < uiuc-slack3> it's clear from looking at it that it decouples the inputs/outputs within a block 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [] 21:00 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:03 -!- cyphase_eviltwin [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:18 < aj> amiller: there's also cut-through across (and within, aiui) blocks -- if you spend A to B/C then spend B to D, you only end up with {A},{C,D} 21:19 < uiuc-slack3> i see 21:20 < uiuc-slack3> that's a good point, that's easy enough to add: ZkPoK_(inputs,outputs) { (txs): txs is a list of valid transactions, inputs are all the inputs of the txs (with cut throughs removed), and outputs are some permutation of all the outputs of the txs (with cut throughs removed) } 21:24 < aj> amiller: yeah, that gets pretty close to andytoshi's definition of a "transaction" for mimblewimble -- 2.2 in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/mimblewimble-andytoshi-INCOMPLETE-DRAFT-2016-10-06-001.pdf . a cut-through just means something appears as both an input and output, so dropping from both gets you the "canonical" transaction 21:27 < uiuc-slack3> ok, yeah, i can see it 21:34 -!- mrkent 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