--- Log opened Sat Oct 22 00:00:28 2016
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11:09 < YiumPotato> hello mighty wizards
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11:16 < YiumPotato> man very old logs are interesting =P
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11:18 < Taek> re: "On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward", the paper makes the assumption that blocks can include all transactions
11:18 < Taek> They also go on to show that the standard deviation of the transaction fee part of the subsidy is about half of its mean
11:19 < Taek> But I think pretty much all of their conclusions would fall apart if a deep transaction pool was standard
11:19 < kanzure> i didn't check to see whether scenarios or fixes like "don't take too many fees such that other miners will try to grind your picks away from you instead of extending the chain"
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11:20 < Taek> that's a good point, I'm not sure how the game theory works out but as a miner it may be in your best interest to *not* greedily grab all the fees
11:21 < bsm1175321> I'm still deeply uncomfortable with the "deep transaction pool" idea.  It seems to mean the system is not working for many participants.
11:23 < kanzure> Taek: right-- there will probably have to be consesus-enforced fee mechanisms where yo ucould voluntarily break up a fee over many blocks or something
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11:24 < Taek> kanzure: any consensus enforced fee mechanisms can be optionally routed around by dropping, say, anyone-can-spend outputs, or by using other means of paying out-of-band
11:24 < YiumPotato> what's the problem if miners pick the most bitcoin fee/kb? I don't see why youd need a mechanism like that
11:25 < Taek> http://randomwalker.info/publications/mining_CCS.pdf
11:25 < Taek> YiumPotato: read the paper
11:25 < kanzure> YiumPotato: because why mine a new block when you could take the high fee transaction by retrying the previous block? it's more valuable...
11:25 < Taek> any consensus-enforced fee mechanism has to be better for all participants than escaping it
11:26 < Taek> which, I think would be difficult to achieve, because usually fee-distribution reduces the expected fee-value of high-fee transactions
11:28 < YiumPotato> oh, I see. A fee pool is a good idea but a little bit unrealistic
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11:32 < Taek> kanzure: looks like the paper does cover that, see 5.3 on page 7 - "Phase Three: Aggressive Undercutting"
11:32 < Taek> miners being playing games to minimize the chance that someone will fork them
11:32 < Taek> *begin
11:34 < kanzure> ah good
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11:37 < bsm117532> Why not get rid of tx fees going to miners, in favor of time averaged coin destruction?
11:38 < bsm117532> It probably doesn't solve the problem, but makes attacks longer-ranged...
11:38 < Taek> what are the incentives for the miners to adopt that?
11:39 < bsm117532> The time averaged coin destruction would be balanced by coin creation. So they're still getting tx fees, in an averaged manner
11:39 < Taek> The paper shows in section 5.4 that there's an equilibrium where miners can include only a few transactions and remove their risk of being undercut
11:39 < Taek> but this equilibrium results in a growing transaction backlog
11:40 < bsm117532> I don't see how to keep a "deep mempool" stable...at night when fewer txs get submitted, the pool would get exhausted
11:41 < Taek> I'm not 100% sure that I understand the paper correctly
11:41 < Taek> but it actually seems like you don't need any extra rules to acheive that deep mempool
11:42 < Taek> basically, if you exhaust too much of the mempool, the rest of the network will fork you because it's more profitable for them to do so
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11:42 < Taek> so, there's this sort of implicit incentive not to take too much
11:42 < bsm117532> Well, its depth fluctuates
11:42 < Taek> no, apparently the depth is monotonically increasing
11:42 < bsm117532> Ugh
11:42 < Taek> well, from block-to-block
11:43 < Taek> if it's not increasing, people will fork you
11:43 < Taek> and so it's better for you financially just to mine fewer transactions
11:43 < bsm117532> Having transactions permanently in limbo is not a good thing I think...
11:43 < Taek> neither is heat death I think
11:44 < bsm117532> There's new game theory about how TX submitters manage their limbo transactions...
11:44 < bsm117532> Maybe I submit a bunch of low fee txs so another of my txs goes through
11:44 < bsm117532> Heat death?
11:45 < Taek> I merely meant to suggest that sometimes you have problems you don't know how to solve
11:46 < bsm117532> I don't believe in such things ;-)
11:47 < bsm117532> Gotta at least try
11:48 < bsm117532> Gotta run...i need to read this paper carefully still.
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13:42 < adlai> bsm1175321: [deep mempool] ... means the system is not working for many participants. << define 'working'
13:42 < adlai> note that nowhere in the whitepaper does satoshi say your transaction should confirm within X blocks. imo, sending a tx which you fully expect to feebump multiple times is, and should be, SOP for low-priority data (note that i say data, not commerce)
13:43 < kanzure> something something deep mempool backlog turnover rate
13:43 < adlai> please provide either a context link, or macroexpand your somethingsomething :)
13:44  * adlai has no idea what 'backlog turnover rate' meavns
13:46 < adlai> re: 'deep mempool', i think it's perfectly fine for bitcoin to support T+1 settlement on both the hour and day scales. so if you want clearing within an hour, you pay a fee that should confirm in the next block, and once every two weeks you get a T+2 settlement; not the end of the world. if you want daily settlement, you pay a muuuuuch lower fee, and bump it to an hourly fee the next day if it didn't
13:46 < adlai> confirm during the 'night'
13:46 < adlai> ;;tblb 7200
13:46 < gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 8 years, 16 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 6 minutes, and 22 seconds
13:46 < adlai> ;;tblb 4800
13:46 < gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds to generate is 5 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 36 minutes, and 40 seconds
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13:51 < brg444> bsm1175321: Bitcoin doesn't sleep. "At night" doesn't mean much for a global, borderless consensus mechanism ;)
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13:56 < adlai> brg444: bitcoin still has nonuniform activity relative to the angle at which sunlight strikes its planet
13:56 < adlai> (... and anybody who thinks bitcoin is an interplanetary phenomenon needs to rethink their assumptions)
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16:03 < bsm1175321> Imagine that you tried to pay your rent by sending a bank transfer, and your bank says "oh, we don't know if it will arrive, it depends on what other people are doing".
16:03 < kanzure> why would your bank fail to operate a payment channel?
16:03 < bsm1175321> "deep mempool" means there is always some transaction that will never be confirmed, and that situation will be gamed.
16:04 < bsm1175321> kanzure: A "deep mempool" has transactions which will never be confirmed.
16:04 < adlai> "transaction" /= blockchain message
16:04 < bsm1175321> adlai: not sure what you mean?
16:05 < adlai> deep mempools are full of messages that will never confirm, but that's fine. if a message is worth confirming, the sender will notice, and bump the fee. too bad satoshi didn't make this clear when specifying the write protocol :)
16:05 < adlai> but a "transaction" (of which only half is payment, the other half being... something else) doesn't have to correspond 1-to-1 with blockchain messages.
16:07 < bsm1175321>  A deep mempool means either: (1) There is a new game regarding the set of transactions which will never confirm, the game theory of which has not been explored, or (2) there are a set of participants expecting transactions to settle who are not getting what they want.
16:08 < adlai> please clarify the difference between "transaction" and "payment". i think you're using the word "transaction" to mean what i'd call a "payment".
16:09 < bsm1175321> Probabilistic settlement is a ridiculous problem to introduce when we have nearly instant communication over the intertubes.
16:09 < bsm1175321> adlai: I'm using them synonymously ;-)
16:09 < bsm1175321> Why are you differentiating them?
16:10 < adlai> because "pay your rent" is a payment, but it doesn't have to be a bitcoin-as-in-on-the-bitcoin-blockchain transaction
16:11 < adlai> if few enough people are using a global messaging channel that paying your rent by broadcasting on a finite planetary resource is within your pay grade, go right ahead. but that's a priviledge, not a right.
16:11 < bsm1175321> I don't see the difference...
16:12 < bsm1175321> We're trying to invent internet money here, no?  Not a rich-people-only system... ;-)
16:12 < adlai> i'll rephrase my response to your rent-payment comment as: "your bank should either operate a payment channel, or have sufficiently friendly relations with a miner"
16:12 < bsm1175321> Point is, the restriction you're referring to is artificial
16:13 < bsm1175321> So you're advocating for everything-on-lightning...that's one way to go.
16:13 < adlai> it's not artificial. if everybody on earth tried to send emails via radio waves, they'd run into these "artificial" restrictions as well
16:13 < bsm1175321> It reintroduces banking to a system intended to destroy it though...
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16:14 < adlai> not everything, no.
16:14 < bsm1175321> Block size limits are artificial.  We're not limited by available bandwidth here.
16:14 < adlai> physics limits channel bandwidth for any channel, this is true outside of bitcoin as well
16:15 < bsm1175321> Physics does not limit the number of fiber lines I can deploy across the pacific.  Physics limits *latency* not bandwidth.  (Hence my work on braids...)
16:15 < adlai> physics limits that, but the math doesn't fit in the margins of my irc buffer :)
16:16 < bsm1175321> Well not in any practical way...finance limits the number of fiber channels... ;-)
16:16 < bsm1175321> More money = more bandwidth, the same is not true for latency.
16:17 < adlai> my point is that even if you bump capacity as high as physically possible, it's still finite; and assuming that demand will expand to fill capacity (which has happened with every communications channel mankind has constructed, to my knowledge), merely increasing capacity won't indefinitely satisfy demand.
16:17 < bsm1175321> We are many, many orders of magnitude away from those limits and the restrictions are related to protocol and game theory.  They are not phsical.
16:19 < bsm1175321> Coming back to the "deep mempool" idea...it's in the interest of miners to submit a bunch of low-fee transactions, to push up the fees...
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16:22  * adlai wonders to what degree that remains true when you have a truly-deep mempool; ie, one where, if a miner submits low-fee transactions with higher fees than background low-priority tx noise, larger miners will orphan their blocks to steal the formerly-'free' transactions
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17:42 < bsm1175321> It strikes me that miners always have an effective "discount" on fees they submit as transactions, because a certain fraction of the time they will mine their own transactions and get their own fees back.  So, it's always in their best interest (and ability) to push fees as high as they can make them.
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17:43 < bsm1175321> Perhaps there's a net equilibrium when only miners are participating...
17:43 < bsm1175321> Anyway, this is a rather perverse game.
17:45 < aj> bsm1175321: they still "pay" the fee in the form of reduced income. getting the fee back just nets to zero (at best) for them, forwarding someone else's transaction nets to +12000 satoshi or whatever
17:48 < adlai> aj: the argument is that getting the fee back nets +EV by raising the fee floor, although proving this beyond rational doubt seems a challenge
17:48 < bsm1175321> Point is, this game needs a more serious analysis.  And I don't like this game...the point of tx fees should be to prevent usages with a net cost to the ecosystem.
17:49 < bsm1175321> Every example I know of with a tx fee results in a cartel/corruption and raising the fee to the highest allowed by law.  (Consider: ATM fees, real estate agent fees, etc)
17:49 < adlai> sadly game theory is almost as young a science as ledger distribution technology!
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17:51 < bsm1175321> I think there might be a way to take tx fees and prevent the "tragedy of the commons" while avoiding the game involved in taking the fee.  e.g. coin destruction in favor of a fixed block reward.  That way the games are unlinked.
17:51 < adlai> vmmmmmmm
17:51 < adlai> sorry. keyboard needs replacement.
17:52 < adlai> wouldn't coin destruction + infinite disinflation (a la 'woodcoin') lose long-term to a system that had coin destruction + finite disinflation?
17:52 < aj> adlai: as a miner you can "raise the fee floor" for your blocks directly by just refusing txs with lower fees or soft-limiting your block size
17:53 < adlai> sure, that's not the argument.
17:53 < adlai> the argument is about "manipulating" (ie, non-coercively fooling) customers of the fee market into paying more than necessary
17:53 < aj> adlai: stuffing fake transactions can add to that if you can confuse how people estimate fees (eg, if you took the average or nth percentile of recent blocks), but i don't think that would confuse the core coin estimator
17:54 < adlai> please don't direct criticism of this argument at me, i don't agree with it myself
17:55 < bsm1175321> A key assumption here is that the "real" market submits more transactions than miners and so sets the price.  This is obviously not true.  Miners can easily flood the system with transactions.  The game theory is not so simple.
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17:56 < aj> bsm1175321: anyone can flood the market with transactions (and anyone can mine, too), how are you differentiating "miners" txes from "real" ones?
17:57 < aj> bsm1175321: if you say "unpublished txes prior to finding a block", then i don't think those influence core fee estimation
17:57 < bsm1175321> I'm just saying it's an assumption one might mistakenly make in trying to figure out the game theory here...
17:57 < adlai> my problem with the floor-raising argument is that "patient" users (ones who care about the floor, rather than the ceiling) sh/would be patient enough to submit their first attempt below the floor of on-chain fees, maybe even below the floor of the (deeeeep!) mempool, and bump gradually enough to allow time for all miners to have seen the tx
17:57 < aj> bsm1175321: if you have some other measure, then other miners can claim the fees from those transactions, so they're not free
17:57 < bsm1175321> "patient enough" may be infinite, while miners play games with each other.
17:58 < adlai> it's finite, limited by (not 'physics' this time...) their ability to mine their own transactions
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18:00 < bsm1175321> A miner knows which transactions are his, and will always choose to mine his transactions, so as to regain his fees.
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18:05 < aj> bsm1175321: regaining 10c isn't worth forgoing gaining 20c from someone else
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18:52 < bsm1175321> It is when you can do both by transaction selection.  You can mine a block containing only your transactions...or mine a few from those willing to rise above your price floor.  Every miner can do this and therefore set the price floor arbitrarily high.  There is no downward price pressure.
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19:02 < aj> bsm1175321: downward price pressure comes from fewer people using bitcoin -- if you started with n people and fees of f, you get n*f revenue; if you increase fees by x, you get (n-k)*(f+x). eventually k becomes large enough that that's lower than n*f
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19:02 < aj> bsm1175321: at no point do you need to mine your own transactions to make that happen though
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19:43  * adlai reformulates this in limit order book terms: buyers of block space can broadcast offers to fill it at a specific price. producers of block space can broadcast proposed use of block space, effectively filling offers that pass their sell price.
19:45 < adlai> if a proposal for blockspace uses too high a price, some other producer of blockspace can make a competing proposal, which effectively 'steals' from the rejected producer
19:45 < adlai> not a nice game, but it seems to work.
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22:31 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> wasi: any chance HTTPS could be enabled for mimblewimble.cash ?
22:35 < wasi> as of now ssl goes by https://www.geekweb.com/mimblewimble/
22:36 < wasi> will add it to the domain itself as soon as the site becomes more useful
22:37 < qpm> tx:<Jeremy_Rand> wasi: thanks
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--- Log closed Sun Oct 23 00:00:29 2016