--- Log opened Sun Oct 23 00:00:29 2016 00:25 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@h88-150-224-74.host.redstation.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:27 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 00:29 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:33 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:33 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:34 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:43 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgamizkzqzjurxpu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:53 -!- qpm [~qpm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic/bot/qpm] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:53 -!- qpm [~qpm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic/bot/qpm] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 < fluffypony> wasi: maybe start a separate channel for it, otherwise there will be a flood of dev / nonsense questions here, which is pretty OT 01:25 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 01:26 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- GreekMiner [~Greek@ppp-2-86-57-29.home.otenet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 < wasi> i'm not going to create an altcoin or pump 'mw' in any way ricardo ;). but you're right, i'm going to change the link to #MimbleWimble 02:00 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@2001:67c:10ec:52c5:8000::24c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:01 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@77.245.65.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:03 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 02:09 -!- dnaleor [~dnaleor@78-23-74-78.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:14 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:16 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:57 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@77.245.65.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:58 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:59 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:04 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07 -!- murch [~murch@p4FE38A82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:11 < fluffypony> wasi: ah sorry, that wasn't what I was trying to imply - it was more to limit randoms coming in and discussing off-topic stuff :) 03:27 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 < wasi> i know.. and got your point right away.. was just joking (xmr :p) 03:33 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:33 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.159] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:35 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:35 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@37.157.216.159] has quit [Changing host] 03:35 -!- Alina-malina [~Alina-mal@unaffiliated/alina-malina] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37 -!- BCBot [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37 -!- BCBot [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:44 -!- ratoder [~ratoder@static.111.19.201.138.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:50 -!- pro [~pro@unaffiliated/pro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:58 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:13 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:33 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 04:34 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:34 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35 -!- testnet [~wasi@25.22.3.213.static.wline.lns.sme.cust.swisscom.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 -!- testnet [~wasi@25.22.3.213.static.wline.lns.sme.cust.swisscom.ch] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 04:38 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@h88-150-224-74.host.redstation.co.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:39 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:39 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 04:43 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:43 < fluffypony> :) 04:44 < nsh> heh, didn't know zcash genesis was imminent 04:44 < fluffypony> no details on the trusted setup yet, that I'm aware of - maybe amiller can shed light on it 04:44 < fluffypony> or maybe it's security through obscurity 04:47 < waxwing> they should have moved it forward a few days and re-enacted the 5th of november "fireworks" :) 04:47 < fluffypony> lol 04:48 < waxwing> the other day i saw this: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-internet-is-controlled-by-secret-keys-2016-10 ; it's an interesting example :) 04:48 * adlai thought it was trusted setup through trusted hardware? 04:54 < nsh> i'm not sure that's even a thing 04:55 < nsh> well, i guess you could fabricate an ASIC just for this purpose that destroys the CRS backdoor but probably it would just add even more complexity meaning even more places something sneaky could happen 04:56 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:57 * adlai must lunch, but hopes to return to context for "CRS backdoor" 04:58 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:58 < fluffypony> adlai: Common Reference String 05:00 < nsh> .wik Common reference string model 05:00 < yoleaux> "In cryptography, the common reference string (CRS) model captures the assumption that a trusted setup in which all involved parties get access to the same string crs taken from some distribution D exists. Schemes proven secure in the CRS model are secure given that the setup was performed correctly." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_reference_string_model 05:01 < nsh> zcash is perfectly anonymous, but at the cost of it being perfectly possible for anyone who manages to retain the backdoor key to perform unlimited undetectable fraud (modulo consequences of inflation) 05:03 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:04 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:05 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:06 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:08 -!- jtimon [~quassel@211.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 < nsh> has anyone heard of any studies on side-channel eliminating guest OS virtualisation layers? 05:16 -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:17 < nsh> 'This implementation of Zcash is not resistant to side-channel attacks. You should assume (even unprivileged) users who are running on the hardware, or who are physically near the hardware, that your zcashd process is running on will be able to: {badthings...}' 05:17 < nsh> but you can eliminate all of the side-channels theoretically at the cost of losing the caching benefit that enables them 05:18 < nsh> it'd be nice if some work were done on this to determine the performance penalties for various common [ECC] crypto operations relative to common virtualisation solutions 05:19 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:21 -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 05:23 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:24 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:b4b1:3d2d:74c7:470a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:25 -!- veleiro [~veleiro@fsf/member/veleiro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:29 -!- mol is now known as moli 05:39 -!- nooblord [~Nooblord@190.8.87.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@77-254-12-108.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-114-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:12 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@h88-150-224-74.host.redstation.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:12 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 06:17 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 06:18 -!- CrazyLoaf [uid67551@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wocbqinvifgiaybb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 06:27 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:47 < bsm1175321> adlai: but there are no "producers of block space". It's a fixed (artificially limited) resource. Space in the block has zero cost if it's not full. 06:48 < bsm1175321> This game would be easier if higher tx fees could result in larger blocks. 06:49 < bsm1175321> This supply is completely inelastic, IOW. 06:50 -!- DrDruid [~DrDruid@76.11.82.156] has quit [Quit: ^.^] 06:53 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79.98.72.176] has quit [Changing host] 06:53 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:08 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:14 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web419.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.52.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17 < belcher> yep, its like land in new Manhattan, the only way is to build skyscrapers (LN, cut-through, MAST, etc) 07:21 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 07:29 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:29 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Client Quit] 07:29 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has quit [Client Quit] 07:32 -!- legogris [~legogris@128.199.205.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:33 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- up_dn [~up_dn@2601:4a:c300:2676:1cb3:e3c3:1bbd:c048] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- up_dn [~up_dn@2601:4a:c300:2676:1cb3:e3c3:1bbd:c048] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:37 -!- GreekMiner2 [~Greek@ppp-2-86-57-29.home.otenet.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:39 -!- GreekMiner [~Greek@ppp-2-86-57-29.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:41 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:42 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has quit [Changing host] 07:42 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 -!- up_dn [~up_dn@2601:4a:c300:2676:1cb3:e3c3:1bbd:c048] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:44 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:45 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@109.73.77.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:47 -!- Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto 07:48 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:54 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:58 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:15 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has quit [Changing host] 08:15 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:16 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:26 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:26 -!- edvorg [~edvorg@113.185.52.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:33 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 < bsm1175321> The "deep mempool" is inherently exclusionary: the participants on the loosing tail of transactions are those who must choose to forgo sending a transaction at all. 08:37 < bsm1175321> Assuming participants can bump their transaction fees, some of those who do not get into blocks will bump fees until they do. (The only reason transaction fees have not risen faster on Bitcoin is that this is technically hard to do currently) 08:38 < bsm1175321> But for participants unwilling to pay the transaction fee when it rises, they also need tools to "cancel" their transaction. These tools do not exist AFAIK. 08:38 < bsm1175321> These lower-fee transactions are in a permanent limbo: they *might* be mined in the future, so the funds are considered spent by the user's wallet. 08:39 -!- xissburg [~xissburg@unaffiliated/xissburg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 < bsm1175321> The only way to "cancel" a mempool transaction on Bitcoin is to double-spend the same output, but to do that, the user has to again pay this transaction fee that he has decided is too high. 08:40 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:41 -!- WungFu [~WungFu@unaffiliated/wungfu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:41 < belcher> doesnt the lack of easy RBF actually increase fees? since people who require fast confirmations will over-pay because they cant easily bump the fees if they paid too low 08:43 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 -!- up_dn 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[Remote host closed the connection] 15:52 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:56 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:08 -!- GreekMiner9 [~Greek@ppp-2-86-57-29.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 16:14 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:16 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-177-15-171.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:43 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- alpalp [~allen@2605:6000:f4d6:d600:275c:538f:fa83:370b] has quit [Changing host] 16:46 -!- alpalp [~allen@unaffiliated/alpalp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:49 < Taek> So, I think I understand this deep mempool thing better now 16:49 < Taek> basically, you end up with an infinitely growing mempool, but also the ability to add transactions to blocks with very high certainty 16:49 < Taek> all you have to do is release multiple transactions 16:50 < Taek> one that you intend to confirm, and then some lower fee transactions that you intend to leave in limbo indefintiely 16:50 < Taek> The only reason you need transactions in limbo is so that the miners have incentive to not fork eachother 16:50 < Taek> but there's no reason that those transactions/fees have to correspond to actual transactions 16:51 < Taek> it's basically a tithe 16:51 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@c-68-62-95-247.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 49.0.1/20160922113459]] 16:51 < Taek> And the tithe that you need to submit is proportional to the fee that you're trying to put on the actual transaction 16:51 < Taek> so the tithe per transaction is ~constant, but the tithe pool is constantly growing 16:53 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:57 < brg444> Taek: I think these are conclusions similar to what Bram Cohen observed in this post here https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb#.8pxp0xm4v 16:57 < brg444> he also presented on this in SB montreal iirc? 17:00 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/transaction-fee-estimation/ 17:00 -!- ipwn [~ipwn@bl18-232-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:12 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@bzq-79-177-15-171.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17 -!- ipwn [~ipwn@bl18-232-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21 -!- Topogetcyrpto [~Topogetcy@88.150.180.82] has quit [Quit: Topogetcyrpto] 17:28 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:32 -!- nooblord [~Nooblord@190.8.87.27] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:33 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:33 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:41 < bsm1175321> If only one could devise some kind of blind Dutch auction mechanism for the transaction fee instead... 17:42 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@bryan.fairlystable.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 17:42 -!- Topic set by sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] [Thu Oct 29 17:53:34 2015] 17:42 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 17:42 [@ChanServ ] [ copumpkin ] [ jack_ ] [ PaulCapestany ] 17:42 [ [d__d] ] [ Cory ] [ jacurn ] [ paveljanik ] 17:42 [ [Derek] ] [ coryfields ] [ jaromil ] [ petertodd ] 17:42 [ _flow_ ] [ CrazyLoaf ] [ jbenet ] [ phantomcircuit] 17:42 [ _mn3monic ] [ crescendo ] [ jeremyrubin ] [ Piper-Off ] 17:42 [ _whitelogger ] [ CryptoTraderClub] [ jl2012 ] [ poggy ] 17:42 [ a5m0 ] [ cyphase ] [ jlyndon_ ] [ pro ] 17:42 [ aalex ] [ d9b4bef9 ] [ jonasschnelli] [ prosody ] 17:42 [ aar- ] [ da2ce7_ ] [ jrayhawk_ ] [ PsychoticBoy ] 17:42 [ AaronvanW ] [ dabura667 ] [ jtimon ] [ qawap ] 17:42 [ adam3us ] [ davec ] [ jtremback__ ] [ qpm ] 17:42 [ adams__ ] [ dEBRUYNE ] [ K1773R ] [ ratoder ] 17:42 [ adiabat ] [ dgenr8 ] [ kabaum ] [ retrohacker ] 17:42 [ adlai ] [ DougieBot5000 ] [ kanzure ] [ roasbeef ] 17:42 [ aem ] [ draynium ] [ katu ] [ robmyers ] 17:42 [ afk11 ] [ e0 ] [ Keefe ] [ rodarmor ] 17:42 [ aj ] [ 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cannedprimates] [ huseby ] [ NicolasDorier] [ ybit_ ] 17:42 [ catcow ] [ ibrightly ] [ Nightwolf ] [ Ylbam ] 17:42 [ cfields_ ] [ iddo ] [ nOgAnOo ] [ yokwe ] 17:42 [ chjj ] [ infinite ] [ Noldorin ] [ yoleaux ] 17:42 [ cjcj ] [ instagibbs ] [ nsh ] [ zmanian____ ] 17:42 [ cjd ] [ Iriez ] [ null_radix ] [ zxzzt_ ] 17:42 [ Cloudflare ] [ isis ] [ nullfxn ] 17:42 [ CodeShark ] [ ithicad ] [ othe ] 17:42 [ comboy ] [ Jaamg ] [ otoburb ] 17:42 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 241 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 240 normal] 17:42 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 17:42 -!- roasbeef_ [~root@104.131.26.124] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 -!- andytosh1 [~apoelstra@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 12 secs 17:43 -!- nickler_ [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:43 -!- gnusha_ [~gnusha@bryan.fairlystable.org] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 17:43 -!- roasbeef [~root@104.131.26.124] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 17:43 -!- licnep_ [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-grjsnbwwnvweeopr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:43 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44 < bsm1175321> Perhaps one could write a range proof for the fee you're willing to pay... 17:49 -!- e4xit_ [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:49 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:50 -!- gigq_ [~gigq@45-20-197-26.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:50 -!- jl2012_ [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipmlfobbgnauutig] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:51 -!- weeeeeew_ [~veven@itphone.edstud.chalmers.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:51 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:53 -!- gigq [~gigq@45-20-197-26.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53 -!- jl2012 [uid133844@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtxvnmzntbrnyazt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53 -!- e4xit [~e4xit@cpc92302-cmbg19-2-0-cust1369.5-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-40-227-45-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53 -!- weeeeeew [~veven@itphone.edstud.chalmers.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:53 -!- e4xit_ is now known as e4xit 17:53 -!- jl2012_ is now known as jl2012 17:53 < bsm1175321> You'd want that the fee output paid to a miner ends up being a confidential transaction, essentially, while executing some kind of auction pricing mechanism in zero knowledge. That way, future miners can't know how much the miner was paid in fees, and eliminates (somewhat) incentives to try to fee-snipe previous blocks. 17:55 -!- jtimon [~quassel@211.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:00 -!- ipwn [~ipwn@bl18-232-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:04 -!- isis [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07 -!- DigiByteDev [~JT2@n218250011174.netvigator.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 < bsm1175321> A "second price" auction mechanism might be used -- where all transactions in a block pay the same fee, and that fee is set by the lowest bidding transaction that made it into the block. 18:08 < bsm1175321> This provides some price stability. Each individual miner might have negotiate directly with transactors, but the maximum bid they were willing to pay is hidden. 18:11 < bsm1175321> All of this said, I strongly dislike making a market out of an arbitrary and artificial restriction like block size... 18:13 -!- ipwn [~ipwn@bl18-232-89.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:14 -!- Aranjedeath [~Aranjedea@unaffiliated/aranjedeath] has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind] 18:18 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:19 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:21 -!- so [~so@unaffiliated/so] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:21 -!- brg444 [415ce2de@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.92.226.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:23 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@84-75-162-45.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:26 -!- xsdfdfsa [~x@unaffiliated/sdfgsdfg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:27 -!- Ylbam 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